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Latin records translations
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:47 am      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:


Hi,

I’m afraid that I can’t be of much help to you on this question. Latin is my strong suit and not necessarily the interpretation of handwriting in surnames—especially those with which I’m not at all familiar. I usually try to determine doubtful handwritten letters by comparing them to letters in words of which I am certain. Unfortunately, on this page there are not enough such words to really help with the letters in the surname. The initial letter is similar, but not identical, to the upper case F in Februarius in the second entry on the page. It also is similar, but not identical, to the upper case T in the name of the father, Timoteus (correct Latin spelling: Timotheus) in the previous entry. My best guess is that the surname appears to be either Felbak or Telbak. The same surname appears as the surname of the father in the second entry on the page. Unfortunately, that is of no help since two unknowns cannot result in a known as a conclusion. My best advice is to post the page with your request in a new thread to increase the chances that Sophia or someone else may be able to provide you with a better answer.

Sorry that I can’t be of more help.

Dave


It looks like Telbak to me. The name appears a second time on the page, five rows up from this one, and it is a little clearer. Two of the capital F's on the page (the two times that February is written) have a mid-point horizontal stroke, which this initial letter does not have. Still, if you want to be certain, you can go back to where you accessed this image and scroll through a few more pages to see if you can find the name a few more times. Better yet, if there is a handwritten index included in the images of these records, the handwriting can sometimes be even better there, and you'd have the benefit of the names being alphabetized.
Sophia
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td85



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Post Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:16 am      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
dnowicki wrote:


Hi,

I’m afraid that I can’t be of much help to you on this question. Latin is my strong suit and not necessarily the interpretation of handwriting in surnames—especially those with which I’m not at all familiar. I usually try to determine doubtful handwritten letters by comparing them to letters in words of which I am certain. Unfortunately, on this page there are not enough such words to really help with the letters in the surname. The initial letter is similar, but not identical, to the upper case F in Februarius in the second entry on the page. It also is similar, but not identical, to the upper case T in the name of the father, Timoteus (correct Latin spelling: Timotheus) in the previous entry. My best guess is that the surname appears to be either Felbak or Telbak. The same surname appears as the surname of the father in the second entry on the page. Unfortunately, that is of no help since two unknowns cannot result in a known as a conclusion. My best advice is to post the page with your request in a new thread to increase the chances that Sophia or someone else may be able to provide you with a better answer.

Sorry that I can’t be of more help.

Dave


It looks like Telbak to me. The name appears a second time on the page, five rows up from this one, and it is a little clearer. Two of the capital F's on the page (the two times that February is written) have a mid-point horizontal stroke, which this initial letter does not have. Still, if you want to be certain, you can go back to where you accessed this image and scroll through a few more pages to see if you can find the name a few more times. Better yet, if there is a handwritten index included in the images of these records, the handwriting can sometimes be even better there, and you'd have the benefit of the names being alphabetized.
Sophia


Thank you very much to the both of you. In RadixIndex the surname "Selbak" does exist, in the city of Kopychyntsi in Ukraine, but I don't know if that's what the name's supposed to be. No such name appears when I look at Posada Rybotycka, Boryslawka, or even Kopysno. Unfortunately, all I have are these scans so there is no handwritten index, but I'll continue looking through the scans. Ellis Island records may also come in handy. Thanks again!
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Lori Love



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:55 am      Post subject: Old Latin records
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I have been sent (from a distant relative) some old Latin records. They have titles. I have learned to make out some of them but some are just too overwhelming for me. I don't need to know the banns and general writings. I just need the cities, names, dates, and anything important.
The first record starts at the bottom of the first page and continues at the top of the 2nd page. It should be the marriage of Matheus Cielecki and Marianna Zuraw. They were from Znin county. I can't read any of this!

The 2nd record should be the marriage of Joseph Cielecki and Catherine Adamiak. I was also given the link to this record. It is at the bottom of the right side.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-SS3T-9?i=725

I truly appreciate any assistance in these records.
Lori



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TedMack



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:56 am      Post subject: Latin Records Translation
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G'day Dave

Hope you can help with the translations of these two records - the best I can do is make out some names, to me the writing is illegible.

First record is for my 3xGGF Hiacenty (Jacek) Oleyniczak born in 1780 in Kiełczew Smużny, par. Wrząca Wielka and in the full page it is record 29. This is a family that keeps changing names, in Jacek's marriage record his parents are Kazimierz and Ewa, but in his death record it's Paweł and Teresa which is strange as his brother was the witness? Throughout his children's records he changes from Hiacenty to Jacek. As Hiacenty is not a common name hopefully this is his baptism record. I can only hope.

Next there is another 3xGGF Antoni Szmayda who had 13 children with his first wife in Blizna, Koło so hopefully this is his baptism record in 1760 - record 31. Can't yet confirm his parents names as I'm still searching for his first marriage record - his second marriage does not list any parents. Still also looking for his death record.

Thanks

Ted



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nick3371



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:56 pm      Post subject:
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Hello,

Would you be able to translate this birth record from 1793 for Walenty Ligocki? Thank you so much!

Nick



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:35 pm      Post subject: Re: Old Latin records
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Lori Love wrote:
I have been sent (from a distant relative) some old Latin records. They have titles. I have learned to make out some of them but some are just too overwhelming for me. I don't need to know the banns and general writings. I just need the cities, names, dates, and anything important.
The first record starts at the bottom of the first page and continues at the top of the 2nd page. It should be the marriage of Matheus Cielecki and Marianna Zuraw. They were from Znin county. I can't read any of this!

The 2nd record should be the marriage of Joseph Cielecki and Catherine Adamiak. I was also given the link to this record. It is at the bottom of the right side.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-SS3T-9?i=725

I truly appreciate any assistance in these records.
Lori


Hi Lori,

There is very little meaty information in the marriage record of Mateusz & Maryanna. Most of the entry is recording the fact that the ecclesiastical requirements for a valid and licit religious marriage had been fulfilled. I’ll translate the entire entry and leave it up to you to decide what is significant to you. It is probably disappointing that there is very little info a genealogist would like to find in the record. Here is the translation.

Top of entry: (Village of) Sulinowo
Body of entry: In the year as above (1783) after the announcements of the banns had been proclaimed and since no impediment had been discovered I, the same who is named above, questioned th newlyweds, the industrious* Mateusz and Maryanna, and received their mutual consent in words concerning the present marriage** and blessed (their marriage) in the presence of the witnesses Wojciech Wotalik and Paweł (illegible word) and many others from the same village.

Notes: *laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate the bride & groom as peasants.
**de praesenti matrimonio/concerning the present marriage: This technical phrase makes it explicit that the couple consented to marry in real time as opposed to consenting to marry at a future time. The verbal consent given in the presence of the priest and the witnesses by the newlyweds comprised the act by which the sacrament of marriage was confected. According to Catholic theology the bride & groom are the ministers of the sacrament. The priest is not the minister but is the first of the witnesses and the person who blesses the marriage on behalf of the Catholic Church.

The image of the 1820 marriage which you posted and the link you provided are two copies of the record of the same marriage. Although they vary slightly in form, they contain the same information. A portion of the record deals with legal civil permission for the orphaned underage bride to marry. The Latin word order is cumbersome in English so I switched the order somewhat in order to make the translation easier to understand.

Number of Marriage for the year: 6
Date of Wedding: December 2, 1820
Residence of Bride: Village of Sulinowo
After the three banns had been promulgated on 3 consecutive Sundays during the solemnities of Masses in both parishes—by reason of the underage bride, Katarzyna, orphaned by (both) father & mother, having ?? in the village of Królewskie* Cotoń in the parish of Lubcz, a certificate written by the guardianship court of the territory of Gniezno was acquired by the industrious** Szymon Adamiak, a settler*** from the village of Cotoń, and turned over to the Acts of the church in Gorzyce—and since no canonical impediment had been detected, I, the same who is above, blessed the legitimately contracted marriage between the industrious** Józef Cielecki, a bachelor, 21 years of age from the village of Jaroszewo in the parish of Żnin, and the industrious** Katarzyna Adamiak, a maiden, 19 years of age from Sulinowo, in the presence of the industrious** Mateusz Cielecki, settler*** from Jaroszewo, the father of the groom, the industrious** Wojciech Kornet, an alderman**** from Sulinowo, the industrious** Szymon Zuromski, the industrious**Marcin Felcyn from Gorzyce, and many others worthy of trust.

Notes: * Regale Cotoń/Królewskie Cotoń: Regalis/Royal is rendered as Królewskie in Polish, On current maps the place is simply Cotoń.
**laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate individuals as peasants.
***colonus/settler/farmer: The word was used with various meanings during the 18th & 19th Centuries.
****scabinus/alderman: the term signifies that the person held a minor civil administrative position.

I hope that these translations help to advance your research.

Dave


Last edited by dnowicki on Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:37 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin Records Translation
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TedMack wrote:
G'day Dave

Hope you can help with the translations of these two records - the best I can do is make out some names, to me the writing is illegible.

First record is for my 3xGGF Hiacenty (Jacek) Oleyniczak born in 1780 in Kiełczew Smużny, par. Wrząca Wielka and in the full page it is record 29. This is a family that keeps changing names, in Jacek's marriage record his parents are Kazimierz and Ewa, but in his death record it's Paweł and Teresa which is strange as his brother was the witness? Throughout his children's records he changes from Hiacenty to Jacek. As Hiacenty is not a common name hopefully this is his baptism record. I can only hope.

Next there is another 3xGGF Antoni Szmayda who had 13 children with his first wife in Blizna, Koło so hopefully this is his baptism record in 1760 - record 31. Can't yet confirm his parents names as I'm still searching for his first marriage record - his second marriage does not list any parents. Still also looking for his death record.

Thanks

Ted


Hi Ted,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but neither of the records are what you are looking for. The record you thought was for Antoni is the baptismal record of Andrzej Lipicki, the son of Antoni & Maryanna. The other record is the baptism of Jacenty Żłobiński, the son of Stefan/Szczepan & Maryanna. The images are certainly not the clearest and the handwriting is not the easiest to read but I am certain of the names.

I do have some news which you may find helpful—The name changes for Jacek are not really different names. They are all forms of the same name. Hyacinthus (sometimes spelled Hiacinthus) is the Latin form; Hyacinth is the English form; and Polish uses two versions of the same name, Jacek and Jacenty. By whatever version you call him he still smells sweet like the spring flower, the hyacinth.

Don’t give up the search.

Wishing you success,

Dave
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:39 pm      Post subject:
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nick3371 wrote:
Hello,

Would you be able to translate this birth record from 1793 for Walenty Ligocki? Thank you so much!

Nick


Nick,

Here is the translation of the birth & baptism record.

Hope it helps you.

Dave

Top of record: (Village of) Mysliborz
Body of Entry: (Baptism #) 3 In the year as above on the 10th day of February, I, who (is named) above, baptized an infant by the name of Walenty, born on the 8th day of the same (month) of the legitimate Catholic marriage of the industrious* Mikołaj and Teodora Ligocki. The sponsors were Jan Samuel and Maryanna Kowalska, a maiden, both from Mysliborz.

Note: laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate the parents as peasants.
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TedMack



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Post Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:10 am      Post subject: Re: Latin Records Translation
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dnowicki wrote:
TedMack wrote:
G'day Dave

Hope you can help with the translations of these two records - the best I can do is make out some names, to me the writing is illegible.

First record is for my 3xGGF Hiacenty (Jacek) Oleyniczak born in 1780 in Kiełczew Smużny, par. Wrząca Wielka and in the full page it is record 29. This is a family that keeps changing names, in Jacek's marriage record his parents are Kazimierz and Ewa, but in his death record it's Paweł and Teresa which is strange as his brother was the witness? Throughout his children's records he changes from Hiacenty to Jacek. As Hiacenty is not a common name hopefully this is his baptism record. I can only hope.

Next there is another 3xGGF Antoni Szmayda who had 13 children with his first wife in Blizna, Koło so hopefully this is his baptism record in 1760 - record 31. Can't yet confirm his parents names as I'm still searching for his first marriage record - his second marriage does not list any parents. Still also looking for his death record.

Thanks

Ted


Hi Ted,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but neither of the records are what you are looking for. The record you thought was for Antoni is the baptismal record of Andrzej Lipicki, the son of Antoni & Maryanna. The other record is the baptism of Jacenty Żłobiński, the son of Stefan/Szczepan & Maryanna. The images are certainly not the clearest and the handwriting is not the easiest to read but I am certain of the names.

I do have some news which you may find helpful—The name changes for Jacek are not really different names. They are all forms of the same name. Hyacinthus (sometimes spelled Hiacinthus) is the Latin form; Hyacinth is the English form; and Polish uses two versions of the same name, Jacek and Jacenty. By whatever version you call him he still smells sweet like the spring flower, the hyacinth.

Don’t give up the search.

Wishing you success,

Dave


Thanks Dave - now you have provided the translation I can see the surnames (not Żłobiński as it looks like an ink blot) - the search continues.
Cheers
Ted
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: 4 Days ago at 6:15 am      Post subject: Antoni Magroski 1st marriage 1775
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Dave,

As time permits, I would like to have this marriage record translated.
Accordingly to his 2nd marriage record he was 59 years old in 1810.
Therefore he must be about 24 years old in 1775, jbut I don't see any mention to his age.
It seems he was living with his mother, in Włocławek.

Thanks!
Gilberto



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UrsulaPeter



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Post Posted: 4 Days ago at 6:30 am      Post subject: 1699 census from Transylvania
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Dear Dave,
I am once again asking for some help. I have found some census records from Transylvania written in Latin and I have a hard time understanding the header. Several of my ancestors appear in these censuses, so understanding the header would help to know a lot more about them. Because there are several censuses, I'll post only one for now (it is a census from 1699, the village is Szentrontás):

https://we.tl/t-R3ZsmGEf8O

The document in the Hungarian National Archives and it is a part of the Vegyes Erdélyi Összeírások (Various Transylvanian Censuses). Their description can be found on this site (in Hungarian):

https://adatbazisokonline.hu/adatbazis/f-49-vegyes-conscriptiok/informacio?fbclid=IwAR3J3DgCbTx0ej9YGcICgmMv4gZSuo17khZdQ1RiP5oxOFxfT0-xumb9FjE

The 1699 census contains the following information about the taxpayers: "a marosszéki összeírás közli a lakott és puszta telkek számát, az adózók állatállományát, a megművelt és megműveletlen földek terjedelmét, az adózók mezőgazdasági termékeit, pálinka- és sörfőző üstjeinek számát, malmaik jövedelmét, aktív és passzív adósságaikat"
So it should contain the number of inhabited/barren land, livestock, cultivated/uncultivated land, agricultural products, number of brewery cauldrons, the incomes from the mills, active and passive debts.

Thank you very much in advance!
Ursula
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Lori Love



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Post Posted: 4 Days ago at 1:00 pm      Post subject: Re: Old Latin records
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dnowicki wrote:


There is very little meaty information in the marriage record of Mateusz & Maryanna. Most of the entry is recording the fact that the ecclesiastical requirements for a valid and licit religious marriage had been fulfilled. I’ll translate the entire entry and leave it up to you to decide what is significant to you. It is probably disappointing that there is very little info a genealogist would like to find in the record. Here is the translation.

Top of entry: (Village of) Sulinowo
Body of entry: In the year as above (1783) after the announcements of the banns had been proclaimed and since no impediment had been discovered I, the same who is named above, questioned the newlyweds, the industrious* Mateusz and Maryanna, and received their mutual consent in words concerning the present marriage** and blessed (their marriage) in the presence of the witnesses Wojciech Wotalik and Paweł (illegible word) and many others from the same village.

Notes: *laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate the bride & groom as peasants.
**de praesenti matrimonio/concerning the present marriage: This technical phrase makes it explicit that the couple consented to marry in real time as opposed to consenting to marry at a future time. The verbal consent given in the presence of the priest and the witnesses by the newlyweds comprised the act by which the sacrament of marriage was confected. According to Catholic theology the bride & groom are the ministers of the sacrament. The priest is not the minister but is the first of the witnesses and the person who blesses the marriage on behalf of the Catholic Church.

The image of the 1820 marriage which you posted and the link you provided are two copies of the record of the same marriage. Although they vary slightly in form, they contain the same information. A portion of the record deals with legal civil permission for the orphaned underage bride to marry. The Latin word order is cumbersome in English so I switched the order somewhat in order to make the translation easier to understand.

Number of Marriage for the year: 6
Date of Wedding: December 2, 1820
Residence of Bride: Village of Sulinowo
After the three banns had been promulgated on 3 consecutive Sundays during the solemnities of Masses in both parishes—by reason of the underage bride, Katarzyna, orphaned by (both) father & mother, having ?? in the village of Królewskie* Cotoń in the parish of Lubcz, a certificate written by the guardianship court of the territory of Gniezno was acquired by the industrious** Szymon Adamiak, a settler*** from the village of Cotoń, and turned over to the Acts of the church in Gorzyce—and since no canonical impediment had been detected, I, the same who is above, blessed the legitimately contracted marriage between the industrious** Józef Cielecki, a bachelor, 21 years of age from the village of Jaroszewo in the parish of Żnin, and the industrious** Katarzyna Adamiak, a maiden, 19 years of age from Sulinowo, in the presence of the industrious** Mateusz Cielecscabinuski, settler*** from Jaroszewo, the father of the groom, the industrious** Wojciech Kornet, an alderman**** from Sulinowo, the industrious** Szymon Zuromski, the industrious**Marcin Felcyn from Gorzyce, and many others worthy of trust.

Notes: * Regale Cotoń/Królewskie Cotoń: Regalis/Royal is rendered as Królewskie in Polish, On current maps the place is simply Cotoń.
**laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate individuals as peasants.
***colonus/settler/farmer: The word was used with various meanings during the 18th & 19th Centuries.
****scabinus/alderman: the term signifies that the person held a minor civil administrative position.

I hope that these translations help to advance your research.

Dave



Hello Dave,
Thank you for your fantastic translations and explanations. On the first record, the marriage of Mateusz & Maryanna, you wrote, 'This technical phrase makes it explicit that the couple consented to marry in real-time as opposed to consenting to marry at a future time.' Are you saying that the couple decided to get married, had some family and friends gather, stated their commitment, and they are considered married? I have read years ago that even in Minnesota that the snow was bad and travel was risky in the winter so a couple would make a declaration to their family and be considered married. In the spring when the weather was better, the priest would bless the marriage.

The 2nd document is the 1820 marriage of the underage bride, Katarzyna, who was an orphan. In stating it was a 'legitimately contracted marriage', does this mean it was an arranged marriage? The name, 'Mateusz Cielecscabinuski', seems to refer to the father of Jozef who was Mateusz Cielecki. Is that a suffix added to the last name or does it have some other meaning?
Again, thank you for your wonderful work!
Lori
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Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:10 pm      Post subject: Re: Antoni Magroski 1st marriage 1775
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Magroski49 wrote:
Dave,

As time permits, I would like to have this marriage record translated.
Accordingly to his 2nd marriage record he was 59 years old in 1810.
Therefore he must be about 24 years old in 1775, jbut I don't see any mention to his age.
It seems he was living with his mother, in Włocławek.

Thanks!
Gilberto


Hi Gilberto,

Antoni’s age is not recorded in the marriage record from 1775. Here is the translation, omitting the usual legalities about the banns, no impediments, etc.

With the hope that you and your family are staying well during the pandemic,

Dave

Włocławek and from Raciązek. February 25 (1775)
The same above named vicar ratified the marriage (the usual legalities follow) between the upright* Antoni Magroski, a single young man from Raciązek, who for two years maintained**** a domicile in Włocławek with his mother,** and Anna Klennicka, from a/the suburb***, (both) parishioners of Włocławek. The upright Michał Ochocinski, Andrzej Kozinski, Baltazar Dygeta, (&) Stefan/Szczepan Sobecki, residents from a/the suburb were the witness present (at the marriage).

Notes: *honestus/upright: an adjective denoting an individual as a peasant. Here it is plural and thus refers to both the groom and the bride.
**mother/genetrix: usually is translated as mother, but can refer to direct line female ancestors like a grandmother. I would say that mother is the most likely meaning, but it could refer to his grandmother—especially if his mother was deceased and his grandmother was still living.
***a suburb/the suburb: Whether suburbio should be translated with the definite or the indefinite article would depend on how many places outside the limits of the town of Włocławek were considered suburbs of the town.
****maintained/ contraxit: The verb contraho has multiple meanings. Most often in such records it is used in the sense of contracted, as in matrimonium contraxit (he contracted marriage). Here I believe that “maintained” fits best in the context.
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Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:22 pm      Post subject: Re: Old Latin records
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Lori Love wrote:
dnowicki wrote:


There is very little meaty information in the marriage record of Mateusz & Maryanna. Most of the entry is recording the fact that the ecclesiastical requirements for a valid and licit religious marriage had been fulfilled. I’ll translate the entire entry and leave it up to you to decide what is significant to you. It is probably disappointing that there is very little info a genealogist would like to find in the record. Here is the translation.

Top of entry: (Village of) Sulinowo
Body of entry: In the year as above (1783) after the announcements of the banns had been proclaimed and since no impediment had been discovered I, the same who is named above, questioned the newlyweds, the industrious* Mateusz and Maryanna, and received their mutual consent in words concerning the present marriage** and blessed (their marriage) in the presence of the witnesses Wojciech Wotalik and Paweł (illegible word) and many others from the same village.

Notes: *laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate the bride & groom as peasants.
**de praesenti matrimonio/concerning the present marriage: This technical phrase makes it explicit that the couple consented to marry in real time as opposed to consenting to marry at a future time. The verbal consent given in the presence of the priest and the witnesses by the newlyweds comprised the act by which the sacrament of marriage was confected. According to Catholic theology the bride & groom are the ministers of the sacrament. The priest is not the minister but is the first of the witnesses and the person who blesses the marriage on behalf of the Catholic Church.

The image of the 1820 marriage which you posted and the link you provided are two copies of the record of the same marriage. Although they vary slightly in form, they contain the same information. A portion of the record deals with legal civil permission for the orphaned underage bride to marry. The Latin word order is cumbersome in English so I switched the order somewhat in order to make the translation easier to understand.

Number of Marriage for the year: 6
Date of Wedding: December 2, 1820
Residence of Bride: Village of Sulinowo
After the three banns had been promulgated on 3 consecutive Sundays during the solemnities of Masses in both parishes—by reason of the underage bride, Katarzyna, orphaned by (both) father & mother, having ?? in the village of Królewskie* Cotoń in the parish of Lubcz, a certificate written by the guardianship court of the territory of Gniezno was acquired by the industrious** Szymon Adamiak, a settler*** from the village of Cotoń, and turned over to the Acts of the church in Gorzyce—and since no canonical impediment had been detected, I, the same who is above, blessed the legitimately contracted marriage between the industrious** Józef Cielecki, a bachelor, 21 years of age from the village of Jaroszewo in the parish of Żnin, and the industrious** Katarzyna Adamiak, a maiden, 19 years of age from Sulinowo, in the presence of the industrious** Mateusz Cielecscabinuski, settler*** from Jaroszewo, the father of the groom, the industrious** Wojciech Kornet, an alderman**** from Sulinowo, the industrious** Szymon Zuromski, the industrious**Marcin Felcyn from Gorzyce, and many others worthy of trust.

Notes: * Regale Cotoń/Królewskie Cotoń: Regalis/Royal is rendered as Królewskie in Polish, On current maps the place is simply Cotoń.
**laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate individuals as peasants.
***colonus/settler/farmer: The word was used with various meanings during the 18th & 19th Centuries.
****scabinus/alderman: the term signifies that the person held a minor civil administrative position.

I hope that these translations help to advance your research.

Dave



Hello Dave,
Thank you for your fantastic translations and explanations. On the first record, the marriage of Mateusz & Maryanna, you wrote, 'This technical phrase makes it explicit that the couple consented to marry in real-time as opposed to consenting to marry at a future time.' Are you saying that the couple decided to get married, had some family and friends gather, stated their commitment, and they are considered married? I have read years ago that even in Minnesota that the snow was bad and travel was risky in the winter so a couple would make a declaration to their family and be considered married. In the spring when the weather was better, the priest would bless the marriage.

The 2nd document is the 1820 marriage of the underage bride, Katarzyna, who was an orphan. In stating it was a 'legitimately contracted marriage', does this mean it was an arranged marriage? The name, 'Mateusz Cielecscabinuski', seems to refer to the father of Jozef who was Mateusz Cielecki. Is that a suffix added to the last name or does it have some other meaning?
Again, thank you for your wonderful work!
Lori


Hi Lori,

In regard to the 1783 marriage record what you had read is basically accurate but that is not exactly what is meant by the phrase “de praesenti matrimonio/concerning the present marriage". Marriage as a sacrament has a long and somewhat complex history. First of all, the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and the groom, not the priest. In fact, in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church a priest (at least since the Middle Ages) cannot be the minister of the sacrament. Because of the obligation of celibacy he has given up the right to marry. (The same is not true of the Eastern Rite Catholics [in Polish records referred to as Greek Catholics] But that is another topic for another day.) It was only after the Protestant Reformation that the presence of a priest was required. In short, the Council of Trent required the presence of a priest along with two other witnesses. The priest was one of the three official witnesses and was the person who blessed the marriage in the name of the Church. Church law always made provisions for a couple to validly marry without the presence of a priest if it would be too difficult for a priest to be present or if the couple would have to wait an unreasonable amount of time for a priest to be available. You are correct that the couple could simply exchange vows in the presence of witnesses. (The witnesses did not need to be family.) When a priest was available the couple and the witnesses informed him of the exchange of vows and then he would give the nuptial blessing. It is interesting that you mention Minnesota. A set of my wife’s ancestors were French Canadians who settle near Minneapolis & St. Paul. They married in the Cathedral of the Diocese of St. Paul in 1850, just after the state was admitted to the Union. Usually we think of a Cathedral as a grand building. The attached drawing of the Cathedral of St. Paul in about 1850 shows how wrong such a view can be.

Back to “the present marriage”...Marriage was and still is viewed by the Catholic Church as a contract between the bride and the groom. This contract gave each party certain rights and also imposed certain obligations. The contract needed to be ratified and consummated (ratum et consummatum) for it to be valid and binding. The ratifying part was done with words as the couple exchanged vows. The consummation took place in the marital bed. In the record the contract was being ratified when Mateusz & Maryanna expressed their mutual consent in words. That was “the present marriage” part of the story. A “future marriage” (Matrimonium de futuro) was a promise exchanged between the couple to marry in the future. Such a promise was binding but not as binding as the vows of “a present marriage”. A contract for a future marriage was usually the stuff done by the nobility rather than the peasantry. Nobles had more property which was part of the marriage contract and thus the promise to marry was a bigger deal. The promise of the future marriage can be likened to a formal betrothal. It was similar, but not identical, to what we know as an engagement—except that engagements usually don’t involve formal promises made before witnesses. In earlier times we read of a groom who got cold feet and didn’t show up on the wedding day being sued in civil court for “breach of promise”.

In the 1820 record the statement that it was legitimately contracted marriage does not imply that it was what we would mean by “an arranged marriage”. It refers to the above explanation of marriage as a contract. It is stating that there was no impediment standing in the way and that the marriage ceremony took place according to the laws of the State and of the Church. That does not mean that the families of the bride and the groom did not have a hand in the arranging of the marriage. 19th Century marriages in Poland (and also in the States) were looked at as a way of binding families together for the benefit of each family—hence the emphasis on the consent of the parents or guardians. The presence of the father of the groom at the ceremony and the legal stuff about the orphaned underage bride are indicative of parental and tutorial consent to the marriage.

The mysterious suffix attached to the surname of the father of the groom is simply an error. I’m not sure how it got there but I will edit the posted translation to remove it. I think that it got there as the result of a bad cut & paste. As I mentioned, I changed around the word order in English so that the translation would flow better and make better sense in English. The entire entry in Latin is one long sentence with multiple subordinate clauses. I usually work offline when translating and just follow the Latin as I read the entry. I then rearrange word order when necessary by cutting and pasting the draft. This entry required considerable cutting & pasting to produce something that made sense to anyone who was not fluent in Latin. The suffix must have been the result of cutting and pasting gone wild. Sorry about that. The translation has been amended.

If you are interested in the history of marriage as a sacrament I would recommend that you read Marriage : Human Reality and Saving Mystery by the late Dominican theologian Edward Schillebeeckx. It is the best historical analysis I've seen.

I hope the explanation answers your questions.

Dave



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Post Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:34 am      Post subject: Re: Antoni Magroski 1st marriage 1775
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[/quote]
Hi Gilberto,

Antoni’s age is not recorded in the marriage record from 1775. Here is the translation, omitting the usual legalities about the banns, no impediments, etc.

With the hope that you and your family are staying well during the pandemic,

Dave

Włocławek and from Raciązek. February 25 (1775)
The same above named vicar ratified the marriage (the usual legalities follow) between the upright* Antoni Magroski, a single young man from Raciązek, who for two years maintained**** a domicile in Włocławek with his mother,** and Anna Klennicka, from a/the suburb***, (both) parishioners of Włocławek. The upright Michał Ochocinski, Andrzej Kozinski, Baltazar Dygeta, (&) Stefan/Szczepan Sobecki, residents from a/the suburb were the witness present (at the marriage).

Notes: *honestus/upright: an adjective denoting an individual as a peasant. Here it is plural and thus refers to both the groom and the bride.
**mother/genetrix: usually is translated as mother, but can refer to direct line female ancestors like a grandmother. I would say that mother is the most likely meaning, but it could refer to his grandmother—especially if his mother was deceased and his grandmother was still living.
***a suburb/the suburb: Whether suburbio should be translated with the definite or the indefinite article would depend on how many places outside the limits of the town of Włocławek were considered suburbs of the town.
****maintained/ contraxit: The verb contraho has multiple meanings. Most often in such records it is used in the sense of contracted, as in matrimonium contraxit (he contracted marriage). Here I believe that “maintained” fits best in the context.[/quote]

Dave,
Thank you very much for your translation and concerning. All family members are safe along these pandemic days.
Wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas!

Gilberto
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