mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 986
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:02 pm
Post subject:
Thank you Dave! No, I didn’t have the name of the groom’s father, so that is a significant new piece of information! And, yes, Ted, I agree the given name is Ewa.
Once again, I am grateful for your help.
Best to you in the new year,
Cynthia
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cdcook2
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Replies: 3
Location: MichiganBack to top |
Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| dnowicki wrote: |
Hi,
Records from Galicia were mandated to be kept in Latin in the columnar format by the Austrian government and multiple copies were required to be made and submitted. Most parish priests hired scribes to do that busy work. Since only a rudimentary knowledge of Latin was required to compose the records the criteria priests used for those they hired was a very basic knowledge of Latin and good handwriting. The scribe who composed the record you posted certainly did not have good handwriting. Since during the past decade I’ve provided translations of hundreds of records from Galicia I’m very familiar with the content of the format and thus can read the scrawl of the abbreviations in the doc with the exception of the abbreviation you highlighted which appears after the names in every entry on the page. It is supposed to indicate the occupation or status of the individuals. Since the same abbreviation appears so often it assuredly indicates status. My best guess is that the abbreviation is for inquilinus (tenant or resident) but that opinion comes with no guarantee.
The entry in Cols.1-4 is the name of the priest who baptized the child—Josephus Lazarski (Joseph/Józef Lazarski), the pastor.
The entry in Cols. 7-9 is Obst(etrix) n Margaretha Arciczewska(?) = The non-examined* midwife (was) Margaret/Malgorzata Arciczewska(?)
The abbreviation in Col. 10 is l(e)g(i)timus = legitimate—he was born of a legitimate marital bed.
For the repeating abbreviation please see above.
Note: *In 19th Century Galicia two types of midwives practiced—examined and not examined, which can be understood as licensed and not licensed or perhaps in contemporary terms, board certified and not board certified.
Wishing you success,
Dave |
Dave,
Thank you so much! This is very helpful and enlightening. Do you have any insight on the surname of the mother's mother's surname, after An[n]a, under the column for Parentes - Matris ... ?
Chris
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2901
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 1:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| cdcook2 wrote: | | dnowicki wrote: |
Hi,
Records from Galicia were mandated to be kept in Latin in the columnar format by the Austrian government and multiple copies were required to be made and submitted. Most parish priests hired scribes to do that busy work. Since only a rudimentary knowledge of Latin was required to compose the records the criteria priests used for those they hired was a very basic knowledge of Latin and good handwriting. The scribe who composed the record you posted certainly did not have good handwriting. Since during the past decade I’ve provided translations of hundreds of records from Galicia I’m very familiar with the content of the format and thus can read the scrawl of the abbreviations in the doc with the exception of the abbreviation you highlighted which appears after the names in every entry on the page. It is supposed to indicate the occupation or status of the individuals. Since the same abbreviation appears so often it assuredly indicates status. My best guess is that the abbreviation is for inquilinus (tenant or resident) but that opinion comes with no guarantee.
The entry in Cols.1-4 is the name of the priest who baptized the child—Josephus Lazarski (Joseph/Józef Lazarski), the pastor.
The entry in Cols. 7-9 is Obst(etrix) n Margaretha Arciczewska(?) = The non-examined* midwife (was) Margaret/Malgorzata Arciczewska(?)
The abbreviation in Col. 10 is l(e)g(i)timus = legitimate—he was born of a legitimate marital bed.
For the repeating abbreviation please see above.
Note: *In 19th Century Galicia two types of midwives practiced—examined and not examined, which can be understood as licensed and not licensed or perhaps in contemporary terms, board certified and not board certified.
Wishing you success,
Dave |
Dave,
Thank you so much! This is very helpful and enlightening. Do you have any insight on the surname of the mother's mother's surname, after An[n]a, under the column for Parentes - Matris ... ?
Chris |
Hi Chris,
I read the surname as Siback. I have no personal connection to Galicia since all my ancestors and relatives were from Kujawsko-Pomorskie and Wielkopolskie. Surnames, like the dialect of Polish spoken, varied considerably by region up to and including the early 20th Century so I am not certain whether or not Siback was a surname used in Galicia. Fred Hoffman lists Sibick as a surname used in Poland so Siback seems to be a good possibility.
One of the few bits of syntax found in the columnar format records is that names of grandparents of the child appear in the Genitive Case in what is known as the Genitive Of Origin. The First Declension Genitive Singular, ae, is a diphthong and sometimes the ending is written as æ to indicate that fact.
Dave
Last edited by dnowicki on Wed Jan 08, 2025 3:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2901
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2025 3:06 am
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| dnowicki wrote: | | cdcook2 wrote: | | dnowicki wrote: |
Hi,
Records from Galicia were mandated to be kept in Latin in the columnar format by the Austrian government and multiple copies were required to be made and submitted. Most parish priests hired scribes to do that busy work. Since only a rudimentary knowledge of Latin was required to compose the records the criteria priests used for those they hired was a very basic knowledge of Latin and good handwriting. The scribe who composed the record you posted certainly did not have good handwriting. Since during the past decade I’ve provided translations of hundreds of records from Galicia I’m very familiar with the content of the format and thus can read the scrawl of the abbreviations in the doc with the exception of the abbreviation you highlighted which appears after the names in every entry on the page. It is supposed to indicate the occupation or status of the individuals. Since the same abbreviation appears so often it assuredly indicates status. My best guess is that the abbreviation is for inquilinus (tenant or resident) but that opinion comes with no guarantee.
The entry in Cols.1-4 is the name of the priest who baptized the child—Josephus Lazarski (Joseph/Józef Lazarski), the pastor.
The entry in Cols. 7-9 is Obst(etrix) n Margaretha Arciczewska(?) = The non-examined* midwife (was) Margaret/Malgorzata Arciczewska(?)
The abbreviation in Col. 10 is l(e)g(i)timus = legitimate—he was born of a legitimate marital bed.
For the repeating abbreviation please see above.
Note: *In 19th Century Galicia two types of midwives practiced—examined and not examined, which can be understood as licensed and not licensed or perhaps in contemporary terms, board certified and not board certified.
Wishing you success,
Dave |
Dave,
Thank you so much! This is very helpful and enlightening. Do you have any insight on the surname of the mother's mother's surname, after An[n]a, under the column for Parentes - Matris ... ?
Chris |
Hi Chris,
I read the surname as Siback. I have no personal connection to Galicia since all my ancestors and relatives were from Kujawsko-Pomorskie and Wielkopolskie. Surnames, like the dialect of Polish spoken, varied considerably by region up to and including the early 20th Century so I am not certain whether or not Liback was a surname used in Galicia. Fred Hoffman lists Sibick as a surname used in Poland so Siback seems to be a good possibility.
One of the few bits of syntax found in the columnar format records is that names of grandparents of the child appear in the Genitive Case in what is known as the Genitive Of Origin. The First Declension Genitive Singular, ae, is a diphthong and sometimes the ending is written as æ to indicate that fact.
Dave |
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cdcook2
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Replies: 3
Location: MichiganBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2025 10:14 am
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| dnowicki wrote: |
I read the surname as Siback. |
Dave,
I think it looks like Siback as well, but could be Liback. I searched Geneteka for Liback and variants and does seem to have been a surname in use in Podkarpackie. Siback returned no results. However, neither name is what other documents tell me Anna's surname should be so I will keep digging around!!
Thanks again,
Chris
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 986
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2025 4:11 pm
Post subject: help with parts of this birth record
Hello again,
I can't make out all the nuances of this 1690 birth record... I know the priest baptized an infant with the name Albertus, legal son of Jakub Miesznakowski (?) and Zusanna Radzyminska. In the godparents section, I see what seems to be the Latin word "gnosi" and "gnosus"...what does that mean? I get no answer from a computer translator...
Also interested in the godparent Adam Radzyminski ... am I reading it correctly that he is from Villa Lumierz?
Thanks again for your help with this...
Cynthia
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2901
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2025 10:19 pm
Post subject: Re: help with parts of this birth record
| mcdonald0517 wrote: | Hello again,
I can't make out all the nuances of this 1690 birth record... I know the priest baptized an infant with the name Albertus, legal son of Jakub Miesznakowski (?) and Zusanna Radzyminska. In the godparents section, I see what seems to be the Latin word "gnosi" and "gnosus"...what does that mean? I get no answer from a computer translator...
Also interested in the godparent Adam Radzyminski ... am I reading it correctly that he is from Villa Lumierz?
Thanks again for your help with this...
Cynthia |
Cynthia,
The child & his parents were from Zagdrzeeo. The female sponsor/godmother and her husband were from the village of Lumierz. The abbreviations are all the same and give the status of all the nobles/sxlachta involved. The abbreviations are leaving out the middle of the status word which in its full Nominative Singular Masculine is g(e)n(er)osus (well-born; Polish: urodzony). A computer translation program is not capable of dealing with abbreviations of status words. As Emeril would say, these nobles got kicked up a notch. According to the Declaration of Independence all men may be created equal but not all szlachta were equal. A noble who was well-born was either the owner or the leaseholder of a parcel of property, which often included the village where they resided. The terminology reflects the old feudal system as found in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Keep in mind that the lesser nobles and the peasantry did not own property. The lower nobles leased the property from the higher nobles. The peasantry held/worked property which was owned by the gentry—not as bad as slavery in America prior to the end of the Civil War but not freedom, fraternity, equality & liberty either. It was opposed by Kościuszko, who emancipated the peasants on his estates and, of course, opposed slavery in the USA. His attitude led his pal Thomas Jefferson to say of him that he was the purest “Son of Liberty” out there. But that is a story for another time. There were definitely some severe deficiencies in regard to being Sons of The Enlightenment among the Founding Fathers. Some of the Founding Mothers like Abigail Adams were much more Daughters of the Enlightenment than their male counterparts. Abigail would have a lot to say to contemporary anti-vacers like Kennedy. She made sure that she and all her children were vaccinated for smallpox, something new at the time. Meanwhile hubby John was off in Congress... Another story for another time & place.
The translation follows.
Dave
Translation: Zagdzewo; On the 23rd day of April, I, the same as above, baptized an infant by the name of Albert* (born) of the legitimate marital union of the well-born Jacob/Jakub Miecznikowski and Susanna/Zuzanna Radziminska. Those lifting (him) up from the holy font (were) the well-born Adrian Zaborowski and the well-born Radziminska, the wife of the well-born Adam Radziminski from the village of Lumierz.
Note: *Albertus/Albert is not to be confused with Adalbertus/Adalbert/Wojciech.
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 986
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Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2025 12:12 pm
Post subject:
Hi Dave,
Thank you so much for the history and the lesson on this specific abbreviation….. you are right, trying to read these records is like deciphering a text message from my great niece - full of codes!
I have more questions and records to come on several death entries.
Until then, much gratitude for your help and expertise!
Cynthia
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 986
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Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2025 4:23 pm
Post subject: help with Radzyminski death records
Hi Dave,
I am back... this time with 3 very short death records. I am trying to make out if there is anything in these records that gives the age of the deceased or if the deceased is a child or adult. I have many "Thomas", "Gregor" and "Albert" Radzyminskis in my tree, so I am trying to assign these records to the correct person.
Any clues you see in these records are greatly appreciated. The 3 records are as follows:
1689 Albert Radzyminski, left side, entry 2
1705 Thomas Radzyminski, right side, entry 3
1709 Gregor Radzyminski, right side, entry 1
Thank you,
Cynthia
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2901
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: help with Radzyminski death records
| mcdonald0517 wrote: | Hi Dave,
I am back... this time with 3 very short death records. I am trying to make out if there is anything in these records that gives the age of the deceased or if the deceased is a child or adult. I have many "Thomas", "Gregor" and "Albert" Radzyminskis in my tree, so I am trying to assign these records to the correct person.
Any clues you see in these records are greatly appreciated. The 3 records are as follows:
1689 Albert Radzyminski, left side, entry 2
1705 Thomas Radzyminski, right side, entry 3
1709 Gregor Radzyminski, right side, entry 1
Thank you,
Cynthia |
Cynthia,
Sorry to disappoint but the three records do not contain the information which is of interest to you but simply put it is not the nature and purpose of such ecclesiastical records to contain that type of information except in passing. Sometimes some of the info about whether the deceased was a child or an adult can be deduced from the text, but not things like actual age at the time of burial. That is the best one can expect.
Perhaps this would be a good time to filter out the mud in the water of ecclesiastical records which had been added by the partitioning powers after 1795. The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth had no system for the keeping of civil vital records. Ecclesiastical records acted as a substitute. The keeping of ecclesiastical records on the parish level was mandated by the Council of Trent in 1575 as part of the Catholic Church’s response to the Protestant Reformation and began to be implemented in Poland around the year 1600. The original mandate was to keep records of baptisms and marriages. There was no mandate to keep records of the remaining five sacraments recognized by the Catholic Church (Confirmation, first reception of the Eucharist aka First Holy Communion, Penance aka Confession, Holy Orders and Extreme Unction). The keeping of records of Christian burial began late in the first quarter of the 17th Century. The waters became muddied when the partitioning powers of Russia, Prussia and Austria became interested in the keeping of vital stats. All three powers employed parish priests as secular record keepers. In Galicia this resulted in the Latin columnar format of records. Prussia mandated that Parish priests (and Lutheran pastors) make copies of the parish Sacramental records and submit them to the secular authorities. This practice lasted until the 1874 establishment of civil record offices independent of the clergy. In the Russian Partition ecclesiastical records played no role. However the parish priests were appointed to fill the role of civil registrar. It was after the partitions had taken place that civil records of death and burial began to be kept. Notice that DEATH & BURIAL records are a category created by and for civil records. The ecclesiastical version was records of Christian Burial, which is a Sacramental not a Sacrament. (According to Catholic teaching the Sacraments were instituted by Christ whereas the Sacramentals were instituted by the church. Beyond the Rites of Christian Burial examples of Sacramentals are legion—Holy water, the rosary, the Sign of the Cross, Święconka, etc. In the filtered waters which result from removing the mud added by civil governments it becomes clear that death is only on the periphery of ecclesiastical burial records.
On to the three individuals… the record labeled as Albert is actually the burial record of his wife. The first word in the record (consors/consort/wife) provides that info. The entry does not include her given name but states that she died in Zagdzewo on October 20 after having received the Sacraments commonly known as “The Last Rites” and was buried in the parish church. (Burials in crypts under the floor of the was not uncommon.) Obviously she was an adult since she had been married and also because she had received the last rights. Children who had not yet received their First Communion (at about the age of 14) did not qualify for any of the sacraments except for baptism, which they had received as infants.
Thomas/Tomasz died in Zagdzewo on October 1 and was buried in the parish church on the second(?) of the month. He was an adult since he had received the “Last Rites”.
Gregory/Grzegorz died on July 5 (Place is missing due to damaged page.) and was buried in the parish church on the 11th. He was an adult since he made his confession before death.
Several years ago I posted pictures of crypts under the parish church in Płonkowo. The parish priest was shot and the church was burned by Nazis during WWII. During the later Communist era an Archaeological excavation took place which revealed the crypts under the burned church. Unfortunately I haven’t a clue about how to find that post to link it in case you are interested.
All the best,
Dave
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1285
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Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 10:28 am
Post subject:
Hi Dave,
You wrote: "Several years ago I posted pictures of crypts under the parish church in Płonkowo. The parish priest was shot and the church was burned by Nazis during WWII. During the later Communist era an Archaeological excavation took place which revealed the crypts under the burned church. Unfortunately I haven’t a clue about how to find that post to link it in case you are interested."
Here is your post from May 17, 2023, 6:48 am:
https://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?p=63730&highlight=crypt#63730
Best regards,
Sophia
Last edited by Sophia on Fri Jan 10, 2025 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 12:39 pm
Post subject: Early Galician Translation (1833)
Hello!
I've gotten pretty good at decoding these things, but this Birth Book entry from 1833 is my white whale. It's pre-columnar, so working out the paragraph has been very tough and the script is ornate, but difficult for the untrained eye.
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks.
Timothy
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2901
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 2:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Early Galician Translation (1833)
| TJazz wrote: | Hello!
I've gotten pretty good at decoding these things, but this Birth Book entry from 1833 is my white whale. It's pre-columnar, so working out the paragraph has been very tough and the script is ornate, but difficult for the untrained eye.
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks.
Timothy |
Timothy,
The record is in Polish, not Latin. You would be better off posting it in the Polish Records Translation thread.
Wishing you success,
Dave
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Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 3:50 pm
Post subject:
That explains why I couldn’t make sense of it! Thanks.
Timothy.
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 986
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Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:50 pm
Post subject:
Thank you once again, Dave. Not only do you answer my questions, but you always give so much more. Yes, as I switch among all the branches of my family in different locations of Poland, I sometimes forget to shift my brain for the correct context of the records I am viewing. I really appreciate your explanation of civil / sacramental record keeping and how they overlapped and were different in each partition. It's a lot to remember and track - definitely muddy! I always learn from you...
Your explanations did provide me with some inferences that were helpful in my placing these records in my tree. When I get back this far, the information gets less specific and it is more like triangulating clues for the best possible theory of how the pieces fit together. It's a constant work in process as new documents and clues arise.
I am posting again for some help. The attached 1728 baptismal record is for Filip Jakub Radzyminski. I also included the entry for this record found in the summary index. I have three questions:
1. Is this one male child that was given two names: Filip and Jakub, or are these 2 infants?
2. If one child and two names, was it more customary at this time for a person to use the first name, or did they sometimes go by the second name? I am wondering if this person could have never used Filip and only used Jakub...
3. I want to confirm as much as possible the surname of the mother. Geneteka translates it as Lipowska, and I can see it was written in after the fact by someone in the actual baptism record. However, when I look at the mother's surname in the index entry, it doesn't look like Lipowska or Radzyminska... it looks like something else.. or just bad handwriting. what do you see?
Grateful for your assistance,
Cynthia
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