Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:40 pm
Post subject:
| Helli wrote: | Hallo Elzbieta,
thank you very much for your help.
There are 2 things which confuse me: "Knibes" and "ekonomii Darmstadt" (I thought that was "Dornstadt", which is near Ulm). I'm not sure if Darmstadt was ever part of Württemberg. I looked at your links, but I couldn't find proof yet.
There is a town Kniebis near Freudenstadt, which is about 180 km from Dornstadt and a little over 200 km from Darmstadt away. That would be very far away, wouldn't it? I would be happy to hear your opinion.
Best regards,
Helli |
Helli,
Oops. It looked like Darmstadt, I have been few times to Darmstadt and Frankfurt, it may explain why so easily I saw that name. My mistake.
The document writes "economic area of D", so something like gmina in Poland.
Besides Kniebis near Freudenstadt, there is Knebis, Biederbach, a farm http://fr.getamap.net/cartes/germany/baden-wurttemberg/_knebis/
The very marriage record teach us that names of persons are sometimes written like in Polish, sometimes like in German. Assume that the village is Knebis or Kniebis, what is a D-like name, old enough to have been there 200 years ago, with a status of "economic area" or gmina?
Because of that "economic area" I would like to find close places, not too big distance between K and D.
Kind regards,
Elzbieta
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HelliPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Replies: 292
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:45 am
Post subject:
| Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: | | Helli wrote: | Hallo Elzbieta,
thank you very much for your help.
There are 2 things which confuse me: "Knibes" and "ekonomii Darmstadt" (I thought that was "Dornstadt", which is near Ulm). I'm not sure if Darmstadt was ever part of Württemberg. I looked at your links, but I couldn't find proof yet.
There is a town Kniebis near Freudenstadt, which is about 180 km from Dornstadt and a little over 200 km from Darmstadt away. That would be very far away, wouldn't it? I would be happy to hear your opinion.
Best regards,
Helli |
Helli,
Oops. It looked like Darmstadt, I have been few times to Darmstadt and Frankfurt, it may explain why so easily I saw that name. My mistake.
The document writes "economic area of D", so something like gmina in Poland.
Besides Kniebis near Freudenstadt, there is Knebis, Biederbach, a farm http://fr.getamap.net/cartes/germany/baden-wurttemberg/_knebis/
The very marriage record teach us that names of persons are sometimes written like in Polish, sometimes like in German. Assume that the village is Knebis or Kniebis, what is a D-like name, old enough to have been there 200 years ago, with a status of "economic area" or gmina?
Because of that "economic area" I would like to find close places, not too big distance between K and D.
Kind regards,
Elzbieta |
Elzbieta,
thanks for the link. I've searched google, but I didn't come up with Knebis. I will certainly look into that, as well as the history of the area.
Best regards,
Helli
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:40 pm
Post subject:
Hi, Elzbieta
This death record is a bit different from the ones I have seen.
If I understood it correctly, Rychar is the father and Waclaw is the grandfather of the deceased person.
What is the word before "Kamionici Polskiej" in line three? Sze....
On line five: pierwszy po poludnie umarl DNIA PLI TRZYSKIEJ ?
Next word can be related to Jasieniec, but what is the age after Waclaw? Four years old?
What means Tamze urodzone after his parents names? that Rychard and Franciszka were born in the same village he did?
Thank you.
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:45 am
Post subject:
Gilberto,
All in the text.
Best,
Elzbieta
==
Typed:
99. Antoni Grabowski ...
Kaminica Polska
Dzialo sie w Paczerzy? W dniu szesnastego sierpnia, tysiac osiemset czterdziestego dziewiatego roku, o godzinie szostey z rana – stawili sie Ryszard Topler, Oyciec dzieciecia zmarlego lat dwadziescia piec, i Wacław Topler, dziad dzieciecia zmarlego lat piecdziesiat trzy liczacy, obydwaj Szewcy? Katolicy w Kamienicy Polskiej zamieszkali, i oswiadczyli, ze w Kamienicy Polskiej, na dniu czternastym biezacego miesiaca i roku, o godzinie pierwszej po poludniu umarlo dziecie plci meskiej imieniem Wacław, kwartal liczacy, syn wspomnianego Ryszarda i Franciszki, malzonkow Topler, tamze urodzony. Po przekonaniu sie naocznie o zeysciu Wacława Tolpera, akt ten stawajacym przeczytany zostal, pisac nie umieja.
Ksiadz Falczynski
==
Translated:
99. Antoni Grabowski ...
Kaminica Polska
It did happened in Paczerza? On the sixteenth of August, one thousand eight hundred and forty-ninth year, at six o’clock in the morning – appeared Richard Topler, father of the deceased child, twenty-five years old, and Wacław Topler, grandfather of the deceased child, fifty-three years old, both Shoemakers? Catholics living in Kamienica Polska, and declared that in Kamienica Polska, on the fourteenth day of the current month and year, at one o'clock in the afternoon, passed away a male children named Wacław, quarter of a year old [three months old], the son of said Richard and Franciszka, spouses Topler, [child] born in the same place. After visual verification of the death of Wacław Tolper, this act was read to the present, they can not write.
Ksiadz Falczynski
==
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:19 am
Post subject:
Bon jour, Elzbieta!
Thanks for your quick translation. Do you think it could be Szanuj Katolicy rather than Szewcy?
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:20 am
Post subject:
| Magroski49 wrote: |
Do you think it could be Szanuj Katolicy rather than Szewcy?
|
Gilberto,
My first impression - reading and typing fast - was "szanujacy", but then I stopped immediately, it's too long, the handwritten word is short. On the carreful look I did not see the letter "a" either, but clearly "e", furthemore why this word "szanujacy", saying "respectable" Catholic, does it fit info records? Sometimes we see occupation of persons in records, I do not have difficulty to see all letters forming "Szewcy". Still I have doubts, therefore question mark.
It could be a typo - typos happen in records. Assume the priest started to write "szanuj", then stopped for whatever reason, maybe had to answer question or ask for something, resumed writing.
"Szanuj" is an order, like "read well", "stay on the right side", "recpect your mother and father" - vocative declension.
It does not fit in the record.
Best,
Elzbieta
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ZenonPolishOrigins Team Leader
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1519
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:35 am
Post subject:
| Magroski49 wrote: | Bon jour, Elzbieta!
Thanks for your quick translation. Do you think it could be Szanuj Katolicy rather than Szewcy?
Gilberto |
Gilberto,
My Polish eyes tell me that Elzbieta is right and this is occupation of the witnesses which is always included in this part of record Szwecy - Shoemakers.
I am writing this from a small old Galician town of Brzozów where I just took many pictures in a local craft museum. One of the pictures presents Shoemaker tools  .
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:43 am
Post subject:
Many thanks to both of you, Zenon and Elzbieta. I have received two other marriage records of this family and I would like to have some poins clarified. Here are my doubts:
record # 21:
- profession of the witnesses, at the end of line #3
- both groom's parents were dead or only the father?
- groom's birth place is Wancerzow?
- the master profession refers to the groom or to his parents?
- what is Barbara's surname? (Gie...)
- bride was born 'w Slaszku miescie Habelszwer' (see next record)
record # 18
- what is the profession of the witnesses?
- did the groom worked 19 years as a shoemaker (learning how to be one)?
- born in "Habelczwer w Prusach"
- were both of bride's parents dead?
- what is Maryanna surname, Cochorn?
An East & West Prussia gazetteer, and SGKP as well, show only two places starting HABEL: Halbendorf and Halbersdorf. However, what does Slaskie has to do with Prussia?
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:55 am
Post subject:
Zenon,
Beatiful picture! Mon pêché mignon - my guilty pleasure - are shoes.
Elzbieta
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:20 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto,
I have an important work to do, not much time now, here some hints for two record, until later.
Best
Elzbieta
record # 21:
- profession of the witnesses, at the end of line #3
==> tkaczy, tkacz = weaver
- both groom's parents were dead or only the father?
==> only the father, Benedykt, were dead
- groom's birth place is Wancerzow?
==> Wanurzewie, Wanurzewo; to be checked
- the master profession refers to the groom or to his parents?
==> parents seems to had have high level occupation, ekonomow; he is majster profesji tkaczy, weaver craftsmen
- what is Barbara's surname? (Gie...)
==> Gielzner ?
- bride was born 'w Slaszku miescie Habelszwer' (see next record)
==> I read Slupsk, not Slask; name H to be checked
record # 18
- what is the profession of the witnesses?
==> tkaczy, tkacz, see above
- did the groom worked 19 years as a shoemaker (learning how to be one)?
==> no, no, czeladnik was a grade of a craftsmen, allowing a craftsmen to be paid for his work (as opposed to an intern, learning, unpaid); so he has been a shomaker for 19 years, which is probably as high social position as a good shomaker today (Kilinski in Warsaw, or just a number of them in Paris, I will not quote prices)
- born in "Habelczwer w Prusach"
==> maybe Halberczword, name to be find
- were both of bride's parents dead?
==> the bride is widow, and her parents dead
- what is Maryanna surname, Cochorn?
==> I see the same
An East & West Prussia gazetteer, and SGKP as well, show only two places starting HABEL: Halbendorf and Halbersdorf. However, what does Slaskie has to do with Prussia?
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:01 pm
Post subject:
Elzbieta,
In another record I received tonight it was writen "urodzony w Slązku w miescie Bystrzyce". In my search for Bystrzyc* I found out that Bystrzyca Klodzka, now in dolnoslaskie province, was then part of Schlesien province and its German name was Habelschwerdt . Bingo!
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:05 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto,
Did not have time to do much. Here is item 21.
Best,
Elzbieta
===
21.
Kamienica Polska
Dzialo sie w Poczesnej dnia dwudziestego pierwszego maja tysiac osiemset piecdziesiatego roku o godzinie drugiej po poludniu. Wiadomo czynimy iz w przytomnosci swiadkow Wincentego Herman, lat piecdziesiat, i Piotra Mader? lat czterdziesci osiem liczacy, obydwu tkaczy, katolikow w Kamienicy Polskiej zamieszkalych, na dniu dziesiejszym zawarte zostalo religijne malzenstwo miedzy Feliksem (Felixem?) Szostkowskim, mlodzianem, synem juz niezyjacego Benedykta i Teresy z Ziebowskich, malzonkow Szostkowskich, niegdys ekonomow we wsi Wancerzów, tamze urodzonym, teraz jako?isba? Maystrem profesji tkaczy w Kamienicy Polskiej zamieszkalym, katolikiem lat dwadziescia cztery liczacym, a Panna Augustryna Toplarowna, corka Wacława i Barbary z Gielznerow, malzonkow Toplerow, szewcow w Kamienicy Polskiej, tamze przy rodzicach zostajaca, katoliczke lat dwadziescia majaca, urodzona w Sluzku? W miescie Halbesszfer. Malzenswto to poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzi w tutejszej parafii, w dniach dwudziestym osmym kwietnia, piatym i dwunastym maja biezacego roku, jako tez zezwolenie obecnego temu aktowi Ojca ze strony nowozaslubionej. Tamowania malzenstwa nie zaszlo. Malzonkowie nowi oswiadczaja iz umowy przedslubnej nie zawarli. Akt ten stawajacym i swiadkom przeczytany, i przez swidkow podpisany zostal, stawajacy pisac nie umieja.
Podpisy:
Kamienica Polska and Wancerzów are close to Czestochowa, 31 km distance.
You were correct, it is Slasku, Slask.
===
It did happen in Poczesna on the twenty-first day of May one thousand eight hundred and fifty years, at two o'clock in the afternoon. We make it known, that in the consciousness of witnesses Wincenty Herman, fifty years old, and Piotr Mader? forty-eight years old, both weavers, Catholics residing in Kamienica Polska, today the religious marriage has been concluded between Feliks (Felix?) Szostkowski, young man, the son of the passed already away Benedykt and Teresa born Ziebowska, spouses Szostkowski, once managers in the village Wancerzów; where he was born born, now working as master in the profession of weavers, residing in Kamienica Polska ,Catholic, of twenty-four years old;
and Miss Augustryna Toplar, daughter of Wacław and Barbara born Gielzner, spouses Topler, shoemakers in Kamienica Polska, residing there with her parents, Catholic twenty years old, born in Sluzku? in the city Halbesszfer. The marriage was preceded by three announcements in the local parish, on the twenty-eighth of April, fifth and twelfth of May this year, as well by the oral permit for marriage from the Father of the bridej. There was no attemps to stop the marriage. The newlywed stated they did not signe a prenuptial agreement. This act was read to the present and to the witnesses, and was signed by witnesses, the newlywed do not know how to write.
===
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Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:53 pm
Post subject: Translation please
Hello I have received these documents from the Archives but I was wondering if they could be translated for me. Thank you
Regards
Christine
Hello I have been trying to translate and I think this is part Latin so I should have post in another section of Forum, my apologies please let me know if I need to post again in the Latin section of Forum. Thanks again
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:33 am
Post subject:
Gilberto,
Cathing up with 18.
On the second reading and checking numbers I have some doubts about czeladnik - qualified craftsmen, who can be paid for his work.
If Ryszard is 25, and has been qualified shomaker for 17 years, it means he started at 8.
All of this in the house of master shomakers, generation after generation.
It might be they want to have it said, because they are proud of.
I am glad you found a German name of Polish city in Silesia. I recall at some time Prusia included Silesia, to be checked please.
Best,
Elzbieta
===
Typed:
18.
Dzialo sie w Poczesnej dnia dwudziestego osmego lutego, tysiac osiemset czterdziestego osmego roku, o godzienie dziesatej przed poludniem. Wiadomo czynimy, ze w przytomnosci swiadkow Wincentego Hazler lat czterdziesci, i Macieja Haczók (czór?) lat piecdziesiat cztery liczacy, obydwoch tkaczy w Kamienicy Polskiej zamieszkalych, na dniu dzisiejszym zawarte zostalo religijne malzenstwo miedzy Ryszardem Topler, mlodzianem, czeladnikiem szewskim od lat siedemnastu w Kamienicy Polskiej, przy rodzicach zamieszkalym, synem Wacława i Barbary, malzonkow Topler, tuze maystrow profesji szewskiej, urodzonym w miescie Halbertczword w Prusach, Katolikiem lat dwadziescia piec liczacym, a Franciszka Karlonzka, wdowa po zmarlym w tej parafii przed siedemnastu miesiacami jej mezu Jozefie Karlonzkim, corka juz niezyjacych Macieja i Maryanny Cocharnon, niegdys tkaczy w Kamienicy Polskiej, tamze urodzona i zamieszkala wyrobnica, Katoliczka, lat dwadziescia dwa majaca. Malzenstwo to poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzi w tutejszej parafii w dniach trzynastym, dwudziestym i dwudziestym siodmym biezacego miesiaca i roku. Tamowaniu malzenstwa niezaszlo, malzonkowie nowi oswiadczaja iz umowy przed slubnej nie zawarli. Akt ten stawajacym przeczytany zostal, pisac nie umieja.
Ksiadz Falczynski
===
Translated:
It did happened in Poczesna, the twenty-eighth day of February, one thousand eight hundred and forty-eighth year, at ten o’clock in the morning. We make it know that in the consciousness of witnesses, Wincenty Hazler, forty years old, and Maciej Haczók (czór?) fifty years old, both weavers, residing in Kamienica Polska, on today has been concluded religious marriage between Ryszard Topler, young men, qualified shoemaker since seventeen years in Kamienica Polska, residening with his parents, son of Wacława and Barbara, spouses Topler, themselves masters in shomaker profession, born in the city of Halbertczword in Prussia, Catholic, twenty-five years old, and Franciszka Karlonzka, widow of the deceased seventeen month ago, in this parish, her husband Joseph Karlonzki; daughter of already dead parents Maciej and Maryanna Cocharnon, once weavers in Kamienica Polska, born and residing there, a workwoman, Catholic, twenty-two years old. The marriage has been preceded by three announcements in the local parish, on the thirteenth, twentieth and twenty-seventh of this month, and year. There was no attemp to stop the marriage, the new spouses declared they did not signed a prenuptial agreement. This act was read to the present, they can not write.
===
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:45 am
Post subject:
| Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: | Gilberto,
On the second reading and checking numbers I have some doubts about czeladnik - qualified craftsmen, who can be paid for his work.
If Ryszard is 25, and has been qualified shomaker for 17 years, it means he started at 8.
All of this in the house of master shomakers, generation after generation.
It might be they want to have it said, because they are proud of.
Best,
Elzbieta
|
Merci, Elzbieta. My friend will be certainly happy to know these details about his ancestors.
Gilberto
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