Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:55 am
Post subject: Re: Pawyza Michal death rec. and Pawya Aniela birth rec.
crispm28 wrote: | Elzbieta,
Thank you so much for your recent translation on Brigida Pawyza marriage. I have a question concerning the mother's name Zofia Kobacianka or Kobot. In researching the family, I have come across the father Bartlomiej Pawyza being married to a Zofia Chobot. Is this the same name or a coincidence that Bartlomiej married another Zofia?
I have several documents for translation. Thank you in advance. |
Christine,
Kobocianka Kobot Chobot
I re-read two past records:
1.
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/pawyza_bartlomiej_77_103.jpg
Kobocianka – transformed name with suffix –anka, similar to –ówna, used to say “daughter of”. The question is to find the corresponding nominative, which is not always possible. In the case of Kobocianka: Kobocin, Koboć are possible candidates.
2.
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/pawyza_brygida_flis_jacub_3_m_1824_189.jpg
z Kobotów == > z Chobotów
I wrote „z Kobotów”, but it should be rather “z Chobotów”.
Help from numbers and etymology:
Checking existing names, I do not see any Kobot, but several Chobot
http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/chobot.html
Checking for etymology:
http://www.stankiewicze.com/index.php?kat=44&sub=532
Chobot - 1450 od chobot ‘ogon, chwast’ // 'tail weed'
In summary: it is Chobot, and Kobocianka is a transformation from Chobot. “Kobot” “Hobot” are very close in writing, and quite close in pronounciation - in Polish ch and h spells the same.
Your two records follow.
Best,
Elzbieta
==
==PO300:
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/pawyza_michal_d_1_28_1830_6_181.jpg
6 Łubnice
DATE-of-ACT: 28 January 1830, in the village Dzietrzkowice
WITNESSES: Alexander Pawyza, brother of the deceased, farmhand in Lubice, in the presence of Szczepann Olek and Antoni Przybyla
KTO: Michal Pawyza, died 26 January 1830, 24 years old,
PARENTS: son of Bartlomiej and Zofia, spouses Pawyza
Dzialo sie w wsi Dzietrzkowicach, dnia 28 stycznia 1830 roku. Stawil sie Alexander Pawyza, brat zmarlego, parobek w Łubnie, w obecnosci Szczepana Olka i Antoniego Przybyly, i oswiadczyli iz w dniu 26 stycznia umarl Michal Pawyza, liczacy lat 24, syn Bartlomieja i Zofii Pawyzow. Po przekonaniu sie o zejsciu tegoz. Akt stawajacym przeczytany, pisac nie umiejacym, przez nas podpisany zostal. X. A. Dmuchowski?, wikaryusz
Translated:
It happened in the village Dzietrzkowice, on the day 28 January 1830. Appeared in Alexander Pawyza, brother of the deceased, farmhand in Lubice, in the presence of Szczepan Olek and Antoni Przybyla, and declared, that on 26 January died Michal Pawyza, 24 years old, son of Bartlomiej and Zofia, spouses Pawyza. After visual conviction that he passed away. This act was read to the presents, who do not know how to write, by us was signed. Priest. A. Dmuchowski?, vicar
==PO300:
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/pawyza_aniela_b_1816_60_408.jpg
60 Łubnice
DATe-of-ACT: 1 October 1814, at 8 am, in Dzietrzkowo, county Ostrzeszów, in the department of Kalisz
FATHER: Bartlomiej Pawyza, 60 years old, [półrolnik=size of land], residing in Łubnice
MOTHER: Zofia Lasowa [Lasowajka, feminine form of name, nominative form difficult to recover, Lasowa/Lasowy is possible but not sure], 60 years old, his wife
KTO: Aniela Pawyza, born 30 September 1814, at 9 am, in Łubnice, house at number 55
WITNESSES: Ignacy Bartyk, farmer tenant, 50 years old, and Kazimierz Kowal, 60 years old, [Kmieć], rich farmer, both peasants residing in Łubnice
Roku 1814, dnia 1 miesiaca pazdziernika, o godzinie osmej rano. Przed nami proboszczem Dzietrzkowskim, sprawujacym obowiazki urzednika Stanu Cywilnego gminy Dzietrzkowskiej powiatu Ostrzeszowskiego w departamencie Kaliskim. Stawil sie wloscian Bartlomiej Pawyza liczacy lat 60, polrolnik w Łubnicach zamieszkaly, i okazal nam dziecie plci zenskiej, ktore sie urodzilo w domu jego, pod numerem 55, na dniu 30 miesiaca wrzesnia, o godzinie 9 rano, roku biezacego, oswiadczajac, iz jest splodzone z niego i Zofii Lasowajki, liczacej lat 60, jego malzonki, i ze zyczeniem jego jest nadac mu imie Aniela. Po uczynieniu powyzszego oswiadczenia i okazaniu dzieciecia, w przytomnosci Ignacego Bartyka, komornika liczacego lat 50, tudziez Kazimierza Kowala, liczacego lat 60, kmiecia, obydwoch wloscian w Łubnicach zamieszkalych. Ojciec i swiadkowie pisac nie umieja, poczym akt niniejszy urodzenia, po przeczytaniu onego stawajacym, podpisalismy. X. Hippolit Chrzanowski, proboszcz Dzietrzkowski, urzednik Stanu Cywilnego
Translated:
Year 1814, day 1 st of the month of October, at 8 am. Before us, pastor in Dzietrzkowo, exercising duties of the officer of Civil Vital Records Registry for the community Dzietrzkowo, county Ostrzeszów, in the department of Kalisz. Appeared in farmer peasant Bartlomiej Pawyza, 60 years old, [półrolnik=size of land], residing in Łubnice, and presented us a female child, born in his house, at number 55, on day 30 of the month of September, at 9 am, the current year, declaring that he is begotten of him and Zofia Lasowa [Lasowajka, feminine form of name, nominative form difficult to recover, Lasowa/Lasowy is possible but not sure], 60 years old, his wife, and that his will is to give him the name Aniela. After making the above statement and the presentation of the child, in consciousness of Ignacy Bartyk, farmer tenant, 50 years old, and Kazimierz Kowal, 60 years old, [Kmieć], rich farmer, both peasants residing in Łubnice. The father and witnesses do not know how to write, then this act of birth, after being read to the presents, we signed. Priest Hippolit Chrzanowski, pastor in Dzietrzkowo, officer of Civil Vital Records Registry
==
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1027
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:17 am
Post subject:
Hi Elzbieta,
I would like to suggest a small change to your column heading for C3 in the translation you did for Kreindel Feige, for Heleninnj. You have:
C3: DATE-of-CIRCUMCISION-place-house: 21 maj 1887, Stryj, 60 // 21 May 1887, Stryj, 60
C4: CHILD-name-sex: Kreindel Feige, girl
Since the child is a girl, circumcision is not really what is happening here. The column title is actually "obrzezania lub nadania imienia" so this seems to be a naming ceremony.
Best,
Sophia
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:24 am
Post subject:
Sophia wrote: | Hi Elzbieta,
I would like to suggest a small change to your column heading for C3 in the translation you did for Kreindel Feige, for Heleninnj. You have:
C3: DATE-of-CIRCUMCISION-place-house: 21 maj 1887, Stryj, 60 // 21 May 1887, Stryj, 60
C4: CHILD-name-sex: Kreindel Feige, girl
Since the child is a girl, circumcision is not really what is happening here. The column title is actually "obrzezania lub nadania imienia" so this seems to be a naming ceremony.
Best,
Sophia |
Sophia,
You are right. I will go back to my replies to heleninnj and correct it.
Could you decipher few missing German words in column7 of that record, concerning Joel Sobler?
Best,
Elzbieta
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1027
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:39 am
Post subject:
Hi Elzbieta,
I looked at the column 7. While I cannot read the words, I do have an idea. I looked at 5 or 6 pages of these records, randomly, and I am reading every single child as "unehelich" / illegitimate. That hardly seems likely. So maybe what we are seeing is that, in the eyes of the record-scribe, the parents of the entire community have not met some technical definition of being married. Maybe they had a religious wedding but not a civil one? Further, if you look at other entries, you will see they all include some kind of wording in column 7 that goes beyond what the column heading asks for. So, my idea is that you are seeing the father's name listed. What do you think?
Helen, do you think Joel Sobler could be the father?
In fact, if you look at the child beneath Kreindel Feige, he has a father listed in the father's column - - and the very same name appears at the end of the entry in his Column 7!!
Best,
Sophia
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heleninnjPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 19 Feb 2016
Replies: 35
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:11 am
Post subject:
Sophia wrote: | Hi Elzbieta,
I looked at the column 7. While I cannot read the words, I do have an idea. I looked at 5 or 6 pages of these records, randomly, and I am reading every single child as "unehelich" / illegitimate. That hardly seems likely. So maybe what we are seeing is that, in the eyes of the record-scribe, the parents of the entire community have not met some technical definition of being married. Maybe they had a religious wedding but not a civil one? Further, if you look at other entries, you will see they all include some kind of wording in column 7 that goes beyond what the column heading asks for. So, my idea is that you are seeing the father's name listed. What do you think?
Helen, do you think Joel Sobler could be the father?
In fact, if you look at the child beneath Kreindel Feige, he has a father listed in the father's column - - and the very same name appears at the end of the entry in his Column 7!!
Best,
Sophia |
I am thinking that Joel Zobler could be the father of the baby's mother? My research all points to Joel being married to a Blume Kessler and no other wife. Unless I am missing something. Of course he could have fathered a child on the side!
Thanks for taking another look on my behalf!
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:25 am
Post subject:
Sophia wrote: | Hi Elzbieta,
I looked at the column 7. While I cannot read the words, I do have an idea. I looked at 5 or 6 pages of these records, randomly, and I am reading every single child as "unehelich" / illegitimate. That hardly seems likely. So maybe what we are seeing is that, in the eyes of the record-scribe, the parents of the entire community have not met some technical definition of being married. Maybe they had a religious wedding but not a civil one? Further, if you look at other entries, you will see they all include some kind of wording in column 7 that goes beyond what the column heading asks for. So, my idea is that you are seeing the father's name listed. What do you think?
Helen, do you think Joel Sobler could be the father?
In fact, if you look at the child beneath Kreindel Feige, he has a father listed in the father's column - - and the very same name appears at the end of the entry in his Column 7!!
Best,
Sophia |
Sophia,
You are righ to look on the whole page - I do the same. But.
If you consider AGAD page#56, you will see several "nieslubne" = "out-of-wedlock", and two cases:
(a) the father is not added, and in the last column there is a note that the child died few weeks later
(b) the father is added, and in the last column there is a statement signed by the father "przyznaje sie do ojcostwa" = "I recognize being the father", ex. line 59
I deduced from several other Jewish records I could see, that the rabbis and neighbors knew who was the father, but presumption was not enough, they needed more proofs, and eventually a statement "I recognize being the father".
If my memory do not fail, there was even a case when father was indeed married to the child's mother, but he recognized being the father only when rabbis could show him his own marriage record a couple of years later.
Helen is searching. Joel Sobler is mentioned in the record, in addition to the mother's parents, that's why she wants to undertstand those 3 or 4 German words.
Best,
Elzbieta
ADDENDUM: I see Helen answered, good!
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1027
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:11 am
Post subject:
Hi Elzbieta,
I see your point. I do not know what other role there might be that Joel Sobler/Zobler would have, for which his name would be written in that column. If I knew more about what a Jewish naming ceremony was like, perhaps it would be evident. If the maternal grandfather has a role in the ceremony, then Helen's guess of Joel being the grandfather would make perfect sense.
Best,
Sophia
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heleninnjPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 19 Feb 2016
Replies: 35
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:14 pm
Post subject:
Sophia wrote: | Hi Elzbieta,
I see your point. I do not know what other role there might be that Joel Sobler/Zobler would have, for which his name would be written in that column. If I knew more about what a Jewish naming ceremony was like, perhaps it would be evident. If the maternal grandfather has a role in the ceremony, then Helen's guess of Joel being the grandfather would make perfect sense.
Best,
Sophia |
I really don't know about naming ceremonies at all. What I have come to learn about The Galicia documents is that many times a couple would marry by Jewish law but it wasn't recognized by the civil authorities. The civil marriage license was too costly for some families. That is why in the civil documents a father claims paternity for the child thus making it legitimate. Often at a later time the couple for have a civil marriage, but until that time, no father would be listed.
Thanks again and again,
helen
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:30 pm
Post subject: Baptism and Mariage translation
Dear Elzbieta and PO friends,
My researcher Agata after searching all over Troki and other Vilnius Deaneries fianlly found my ancestors 4th great grandparents marriage and their first daughter Maryanna's birth (both in 1822) The translation will tell m=for sure but I have a feeling she might have been born out of wedlock. Well anyway apparently the Dowiatts moved from Kaunas deanery to Mejszagola parish between 1822 and 1831 when Nikodem was born there.
Thanks Hugh
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_________________ Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:16 pm
Post subject: oracz
Shalom
Thank you again for your recent translations
I would appreciate if you could translateand this one too
ZACK
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nercellPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 21 Aug 2014
Replies: 287
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:57 pm
Post subject: Pitro son of Hipolit b. 1829 Lugi
Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: |
Nancy,
BRIDE-GUARDIANS: guardian Franciszek Tylicki from Ługi and deputy-guardian Piotr Tylicki from the village Dźwierzno
NOTE: geography
Dźwierzno
woj. mazowieckie
pow. żuromiński
gmina Bieżuń
jak opiekuna Franciszka Tylickiego z Ługow i podopiekuna Piotra Tylickiego z wsi Dźwierzno u
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As always-amazing~thanks Elzbieta.
I am left wondering why was it necessary for a guardian AND a deputy guardian to give permission for this 18 year old's marriage? And what exactly is a 'deputy' guardian? ANY ideas welcomed!
I believe what follows is this Piotr's birth certificate. I imagine he moved on to Dźwierzno as an adult. This was great information as Piotr went on to have children and grandchildren in that village. Without your translation, I would not have thought this line was in any way connected to my Szrensk line.
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=13&zs=0616d&sy=1829&kt=1&plik=063-066.jpg#zoom=1&x=372&y=1633
As always,
Much appreciated,
Nancy
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vcorbPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 31 Dec 2014
Replies: 57
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:35 pm
Post subject: Translate email from - Archiwum Państwowe w Poznaniu
Can some one please transcribe the attached copy of email i received from Archiwum in Poland?
My grandmother Julianna Renn (nee Friedrich) previously married Adam Klinke, and had her first daughter Frieda. I believe Adam died before she was born. She then married my grandfather Ludwig Renn and had Helen Renn.
I requested the following birth records:
1. Frieda or Frida Klinke (born 1906, possibly Kleczew Russia, or Bielawy, Russia, both now Poland. Parents Adam Klinke and Julia or Julianna nee Friedrich.
2. Helen Renn - born 1910, possibly Kleczew or Bielawy, Russia, now Poland. Parents Ludwig or Ludovik Renn and Julia or Julianna (nee Friedrich) Klinke.
3. Gustav Renn - born 1883, Kleczew, Russia, now Poland
I requested the following death record:
4. Death record for Wilhelm Renn - died 1927 in Slupca, Russia (now Poland). Father of Ludwig Renn.
I know the attached email is a couple pages, but if someone could at least translate the information answering the above requests, i would be grateful.
Thank you,
Vicky
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:06 am
Post subject: Re: Translation
ctamara wrote: | Could you please translate this marriage certificate for me? Thanks a mil Carol Tamara |
Carol,
Here is your record.
Best,
Elzbieta
==
==PO300:
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/certmarrjananna_196.jpg
N6 Żarnowo, i Kołaki Wielkie
MARRIAGE: 9 February 1834 at 4 pm, in the village Grudusk
GROOM: well-born Jan Kolakowski, young man, heir to parts, born and residing in the village Kołaki Wielkie, 38 years old
GROOM-PARENTS: son of the late (plural) Lukasz and Jadwiga born Pszczolkowska, spouses Kolakowski, passed away in that village Kołaki Wielkie
BRIDE: well-born Anna [born Kolakowska, widow] Chmielińska, lifetime [possessor] tenant-user of noble part, residing in the village Żarnowo, widow, born in the village Trętowo, 31 years old
BRIDE-WIDOW: spouse of the deceased Franciszek Chmieliński, heir of parts, passed away in the village Żarnowo on 24 May 1832, now widow
BRIDE-PARENTS: daughter of the late Mikolaj Kolakowski, heir of parts, deceased in the village Wola and living Agnieszka born Zaluska residing in the said village of Wola on her own part, spouses,
WITNESSES: well-born (plural) Maciej Grabowski, 40 years old, and Franciszek Grabowski, 44 years old, both heirs of parts residing in the village Żarnowo
BANNS: 19 and 26 January and 2 February 1834, in the parish Grudusk
Dzialo sie w wsi Grudusku, dnia 9 lutego 1834 roku o godzinie 4 po poludniu. Wiadomo czynimy, ze w przytomnosci swiadkow urodzonych Macieja Grabowskiego lat 40 liczacego i Franciszka Grabowskiego lat 44 majacego, obydwoch dziedzicow czesci w wsi Żarnowie zamieszkalych, na dniu dzisiejszym zawarte zostalo religijne malzenstwo miedzy urodzonym Janem Kolakowskim, mlodzianem, dziedzicem czesci w wsi Kołakach Wielkich, urodzonym i zamieszkalym, niegdy Lukasza i Jadwigi z Pszczolkowskich, malzonkow Kolakowskich, w tejze wsi Kołakach Wielkich zmarlych synem, lat 38 konczacym, a urodzona Anna Chmielinska, czesci szlacheckiej dozywotnia posessorka, w wsi Zarnowie zamieszkala, niegdy Franciszka Chmielinskiego dziedzica czesci w wsi Zarnowie w dniu 24 maja 1832 roku zmarlego malzonka, a teraz wdowa. Corka niegdy Mikolaja Kolakowskiego dziedzica czesci w wsi Woli zmarlego i zyjacej Agnieszki z Zaluskich, w rzeczonej wsi Woli na swej czesci zamieszkalej, malzonkow, w wsi Tretowie urodzona, lat 31 majaca. Malzenstwo to poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzie w dniach 19 i 26 stycznia i 2 lutego roku biezacego w parafii Gruduskiej. Tamowanie malzenstwa nie zaszlo. Malzonkowie nowi oswiadczaja, iz nie zawarli umowy przedslubnej. Akt ten stawajacym i swiadkom pisac nie umiejacym przeczytany, przez nas zostal podpisany. X. Jan Bukowski, proboszcz parafii Gruduskiej
Translated:
It happened in the village Grudusk, on 9 February 1834 at 4 pm. We make it known that the consciousness of witnesses well-born (plural) Maciej Grabowski, 40 years old, and Franciszek Grabowski, 44 years old, both heirs of parts residing in the village Żarnowo, today have been concluded religious marriage between a well-born Jan Kolakowski, young man, heir to parts, born and residing in the village Kołaki Wielkie, son of the late (plural) Lukasz and Jadwiga born Pszczolkowska, spouses Kolakowski, passed away in that village Kołaki Wielkie, 38 years old; and well-born Anna Chmielińska, lifetime [possessor] tenant-user of noble part, residing in the village Żarnowo, spouse of the deceased Franciszek Chmieliński, heir of parts, passed away in the village Żarnowo on 24 May 1832, now widow. Daughter of the late Mikolaj Kolakowski, heir of parts, deceased in the village Wola and living Agnieszka born Zaluska residing in the said village of Wola on her own part, spouses, born in the village Trętowo, 31 years old. This marriage was preceded by three announcements, on 19 and 26 January and 2 February the current year in the parish Grudusk. No opposition to the marriage had happened. The new spouses declare that they have not entered into a prenuptial agreement. This act was read to the presents and witnesses who do not know how to write, by us was signed. Priest Jan Bukowski, pastor in Grudusk
==
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:25 am
Post subject: Re: Translate email from - Archiwum Państwowe w Poznaniu
vcorb wrote: | Can some one please transcribe the attached copy of email i received from Archiwum in Poland?
My grandmother Julianna Renn (nee Friedrich) previously married Adam Klinke, and had her first daughter Frieda. I believe Adam died before she was born. She then married my grandfather Ludwig Renn and had Helen Renn.
I requested the following birth records:
1. Frieda or Frida Klinke (born 1906, possibly Kleczew Russia, or Bielawy, Russia, both now Poland. Parents Adam Klinke and Julia or Julianna nee Friedrich.
2. Helen Renn - born 1910, possibly Kleczew or Bielawy, Russia, now Poland. Parents Ludwig or Ludovik Renn and Julia or Julianna (nee Friedrich) Klinke.
3. Gustav Renn - born 1883, Kleczew, Russia, now Poland
I requested the following death record:
4. Death record for Wilhelm Renn - died 1927 in Slupca, Russia (now Poland). Father of Ludwig Renn.
I know the attached email is a couple pages, but if someone could at least translate the information answering the above requests, i would be grateful.
Thank you,
Vicky |
Vicky,
Here it is.
Best,
Elzbieta
==
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:43 am
Post subject: Photo Translation Help
Can someone help with translating this passport photograph text? Thanks! Mike
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