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[email protected]



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Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:09 pm      Post subject: Question on Wincenty Spiewak death
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This death document shows his mother as Joanna nee Wronikowska, but his birth document shows her as Stepniowna and his marriage shows her as Stepien. Can you look at the document again? Thanks, Rachel
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marcelproust
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:56 pm      Post subject: Re: Question on Wincenty Spiewak death
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[email protected] wrote:
This death document shows his mother as Joanna nee Wronikowska, but his birth document shows her as Stepniowna and his marriage shows her as Stepien. Can you look at the document again? Thanks, Rachel


Joanna nee Wronikowska

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TedMack



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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:13 am      Post subject: Re: Polish Record Translation
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marcelproust wrote:
TedMack wrote:
G'day, Can you help with a couple of translations please.

With the Birth record for Marianna Solarczyk she was born in Wierzchosław (Żychlin) near Karsy [Bismarksdorf] in Grand Duchy of Posen which I believe falls under the Gołuchów Parish in about 1828. Unfortunately her death record does not list her parents and as yet I have not located her marriage record to confirm her parents. I am having trouble with the handwritten script to determine the parents names and was hoping you could confirm. I believe that it is her birth record. Her record is Record 31.

Thanks


I am working on it.



G'day Marcel - have you had a chance to look at these two records?
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marcelproust
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:38 am      Post subject: Re: Polish Record Translation
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TedMack wrote:
marcelproust wrote:
TedMack wrote:
G'day, Can you help with a couple of translations please.

With the Birth record for Marianna Solarczyk she was born in Wierzchosław (Żychlin) near Karsy [Bismarksdorf] in Grand Duchy of Posen which I believe falls under the Gołuchów Parish in about 1828. Unfortunately her death record does not list her parents and as yet I have not located her marriage record to confirm her parents. I am having trouble with the handwritten script to determine the parents names and was hoping you could confirm. I believe that it is her birth record. Her record is Record 31.

Thanks


I am working on it.



G'day Marcel - have you had a chance to look at these two records?


Today i will send my response.

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:24 am      Post subject: Wincenty Spiewak
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OK, thank you very much for checking Joanna's maiden name as it appears on Wincenty's death certificate.
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:42 am      Post subject: Re: Wincenty Spiewak
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[email protected] wrote:
OK, thank you very much for checking Joanna's maiden name as it appears on Wincenty's death certificate.


Wincenty's birth record also gives his mother's maiden name as: Stępień.
Maybe the priest made a mistake in the death record.

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:18 am      Post subject: Wincenty Spiewak Death Record
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That's what I was thinking as well.
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:59 am      Post subject: Re: Wincenty Spiewak Death Record
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[email protected] wrote:
That's what I was thinking as well.


Hi Rachel & Marcel,

Keep in mind that information in a death record is only as accurate as what the informants provided. The informants in this death record may very well not be related to the deceased or to his widow and if that is the case, they may very well have provided erroneous information. In the grand scheme of things the only primary source info in a death record is that which is directly connected to the death event—the name of the deceased, the time and place of death, the time and place of the report, and usually, the surviving next of kin. Everything else is considered secondary source information and needs to be treated as such. Primary sources always are preferred to secondary sources. The closest to primary source data regarding the maiden name of his mother comes from his birth record and his marriage record. That name in the birth record was most likely provided by his father and thus does not qualify as primary source information. (Keep in mind that the mother of a child was not present for the baptism of her child if she was Roman Catholic. The custom at the time was for the mother to not attend church functions (including Sunday Mass) until after the “churching” blessing which usually took place about a month after the birth of a child. The maiden name in the marriage record again does not qualify as a primary source since Wincenty’s mother was not the one providing the information. However, it is pretty close since the bride was the person providing the information. But even in that case it is possible that the information was not correct. An example from my ancestry is from the marriage record of my maternal great-grandmother’s youngest sister. Her mother’s maiden name was Nyk but she died when her youngest daughter was two years old. Her father remarried and her stepmother was Agnieszka Słoma and it was Agnieszka who raised her. By the time she married her family had moved from the parish where she was born. When she gave the priest the name of her she said “Agnieszka Nyk” rather that “Barbara Nyk”, which actually was her mother’s name. When one considers the circumstances involved it is easy to understand the origin of the error.

The bottom line is that the name in the death record is most likely not reliable.

Wishing you success,

Dave
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:12 am      Post subject: Re: Wincenty Spiewak Death Record
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dnowicki wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
That's what I was thinking as well.


Hi Rachel & Marcel,

Keep in mind that information in a death record is only as accurate as what the informants provided. The informants in this death record may very well not be related to the deceased or to his widow and if that is the case, they may very well have provided erroneous information. In the grand scheme of things the only primary source info in a death record is that which is directly connected to the death event—the name of the deceased, the time and place of death, the time and place of the report, and usually, the surviving next of kin. Everything else is considered secondary source information and needs to be treated as such. Primary sources always are preferred to secondary sources. The closest to primary source data regarding the maiden name of his mother comes from his birth record and his marriage record. That name in the birth record was most likely provided by his father and thus does not qualify as primary source information. (Keep in mind that the mother of a child was not present for the baptism of her child if she was Roman Catholic. The custom at the time was for the mother to not attend church functions (including Sunday Mass) until after the “churching” blessing which usually took place about a month after the birth of a child. The maiden name in the marriage record again does not qualify as a primary source since Wincenty’s mother was not the one providing the information. However, it is pretty close since the bride was the person providing the information. But even in that case it is possible that the information was not correct. An example from my ancestry is from the marriage record of my maternal great-grandmother’s youngest sister. Her mother’s maiden name was Nyk but she died when her youngest daughter was two years old. Her father remarried and her stepmother was Agnieszka Słoma and it was Agnieszka who raised her. By the time she married her family had moved from the parish where she was born. When she gave the priest the name of her she said “Agnieszka Nyk” rather that “Barbara Nyk”, which actually was her mother’s name. When one considers the circumstances involved it is easy to understand the origin of the error.

The bottom line is that the name in the death record is most likely not reliable.

Wishing you success,

Dave


I had a situation when the priest wrote the maiden name of the groom's grandmother instead of his mother's. Maybe Wronikowska was the maiden name of Joanna's grandmother or mother.

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PAYPAL: [email protected]


Last edited by marcelproust on Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:27 pm      Post subject: Re: Polish Record Translation
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TedMack wrote:
G'day, Can you help with a couple of translations please.

With the Birth record for Marianna Solarczyk she was born in Wierzchosław (Żychlin) near Karsy [Bismarksdorf] in Grand Duchy of Posen which I believe falls under the Gołuchów Parish in about 1828. Unfortunately her death record does not list her parents and as yet I have not located her marriage record to confirm her parents. I am having trouble with the handwritten script to determine the parents names and was hoping you could confirm. I believe that it is her birth record. Her record is Record 31.

Thanks



I do not read the surname in entry number 31 as Solarczyk.
Please provide the source link.

Did You try to check the parish of Sobótka? Żychlin belonged to that parish.
______________________________________

Nr 29
Bogucice

It happened in the village of Pamięcin, on June 6th 1841, at 8 a.m.
Appeared Józef Paprzycki, zagrodnik* from Bogucice, 33 years old, in the presence of the witnesses: Jan Górecki and Łukasz Pasik, both zagrodnik's, who live in Bogucice, each of them being 50 years old, not related, and presented us a male infant child, who was born in Bogucice on the 2nd day of the current month and year, at 5 a.m., of his wife Małgorzata nee Włodarczyk, 23 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today, by the undersigned priest, the child was given the name Norbert, and the godparents were: Jakub Durniak, farmer from Piątek and Marianna Wróblewska from Rychnów, all catholics.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses, of which all are illiterate.

Signature of the parish parson.

__________
*zagrodnik: a peasant with a house and farm with an area of not more than 1/4 of a łan (an old unit of field measurement used in Poland). These farmers owned only a small piece of land and were not able to feed the entire family so they ofter were farmhands and had to work.

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PAYPAL: [email protected]
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:09 pm      Post subject: Spiewak, Josef 1826 #60
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Could you please translate the attached record for Josef Spiewak?

Thanks, Rachel



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Post Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:46 pm      Post subject: Re: Polish Record Translation
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marcelproust wrote:
TedMack wrote:
G'day, Can you help with a couple of translations please.

With the Birth record for Marianna Solarczyk she was born in Wierzchosław (Żychlin) near Karsy [Bismarksdorf] in Grand Duchy of Posen which I believe falls under the Gołuchów Parish in about 1828. Unfortunately her death record does not list her parents and as yet I have not located her marriage record to confirm her parents. I am having trouble with the handwritten script to determine the parents names and was hoping you could confirm. I believe that it is her birth record. Her record is Record 31.

Thanks



I do not read the surname in entry number 31 as Solarczyk.
Please provide the source link.


Did You try to check the parish of Sobótka? Żychlin belonged to that parish.
______________________________________

Nr 29
Bogucice

It happened in the village of Pamięcin, on June 6th 1841, at 8 a.m.
Appeared Józef Paprzycki, zagrodnik* from Bogucice, 33 years old, in the presence of the witnesses: Jan Górecki and Łukasz Pasik, both zagrodnik's, who live in Bogucice, each of them being 50 years old, not related, and presented us a male infant child, who was born in Bogucice on the 2nd day of the current month and year, at 5 a.m., of his wife Małgorzata nee Włodarczyk, 23 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today, by the undersigned priest, the child was given the name Norbert, and the godparents were: Jakub Durniak, farmer from Piątek and Marianna Wróblewska from Rychnów, all catholics.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses, of which all are illiterate.

Signature of the parish parson.

__________
*zagrodnik: a peasant with a house and farm with an area of not more than 1/4 of a łan (an old unit of field measurement used in Poland). These farmers owned only a small piece of land and were not able to feed the entire family so they ofter were farmhands and had to work.



Thanks Sobótka is the correct Parish - my search continues.
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:28 pm      Post subject: Re: Spiewak, Josef 1826 #60
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[email protected] wrote:
Could you please translate the attached record for Josef Spiewak?

Thanks, Rachel


Nr 60
Śpiewak Józef

It happened in Wilków, on March 17th 1826, at 10 a.m.
Appeared Mateusz Śpiewak, peasant from Kępa Chotecka, 40 years old, in the presence of Kazimierz Kołodziejczyk, 37 years old and Franciszek Śpiewak, 35 years old, peasants from Kępa Chotecka, and presented us a male infant child, born today, in Kępa Chotecka, at 4 a.m., of his wife Joanna nee Wronikowska, 36 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today, the child was given the name: Józef, and the godparents were: aforementioned Kazimierz Kołodziejczyk and Marianna Wronikowska from Kępa Chotecka.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses, who all were illiterate and was signed by the priest: J. Świtalski.

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Last edited by marcelproust on Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:04 pm      Post subject: Josef Spiewak
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Was Jozef a female child? Was wife Joanna nee Wronikowska or Stipien? I have several records with a conflict of Joanna's maiden name.
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:21 pm      Post subject: Re: Josef Spiewak
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[email protected] wrote:
Was Jozef a female child? Was wife Joanna nee Wronikowska or Stipien? I have several records with a conflict of Joanna's maiden name.


A male infant child named Józef.
Joanna nee Wronikowska.

To understand this conflict with Joanna's maiden name You should try to find her marriage record. As i wrote earlier, maybe it was her mother's maiden name or maybe there were other reasons.

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