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C J Schmidt



Joined: 27 Mar 2022
Replies: 37
Location: Wisconsin, USA

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:35 pm      Post subject: Status of Sadlno Marriage Record Gaps
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I am wondering if anyone knows the status of the record gaps in the Wielkopolski, Sadlno Marriage records, 1849-1850.
Were they just missed during the scan process, or books were in too bad of shape to scan, or missing or still being scanned??? Perhaps they are in a neighboring city? The gaps in death records is even worse?

I am looking for the Marriage record for Jan Grams and Anna Albrecht. I have the marriage record for his son Tomaz Grams translated, (my gr. grandfather) states his mothers name as Anna Albrecht. I have found the birth records for 5 children born to this couple from 1853 to 1861,

Am also wondering if the Marriage on the index of a Jan Grams to a Anna Kranz may have been a first marriage for Jan Grams. But the missing death records for the period make it a bit difficult to know whether or not Anna (Kranz) Grams, passed away or she had been married to a Kranz and he passed away and she remarried Jan Grams.

Any info on the record gaps for Wielkopolski, Sadlno records would be appreciated.



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Trish
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:10 am      Post subject: Re: Status of Sadlno Marriage Record Gaps
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C J Schmidt wrote:
I am wondering if anyone knows the status of the record gaps in the Wielkopolski, Sadlno Marriage records, 1849-1850.
Were they just missed during the scan process, or books were in too bad of shape to scan, or missing or still being scanned??? Perhaps they are in a neighboring city? The gaps in death records is even worse?

I am looking for the Marriage record for Jan Grams and Anna Albrecht. I have the marriage record for his son Tomaz Grams translated, (my gr. grandfather) states his mothers name as Anna Albrecht. I have found the birth records for 5 children born to this couple from 1853 to 1861,

Am also wondering if the Marriage on the index of a Jan Grams to a Anna Kranz may have been a first marriage for Jan Grams. But the missing death records for the period make it a bit difficult to know whether or not Anna (Kranz) Grams, passed away or she had been married to a Kranz and he passed away and she remarried Jan Grams.

Any info on the record gaps for Wielkopolski, Sadlno records would be appreciated.


Hi C.J.
I was able to find a possible marriage record (or marriage announcement) for Jan Grams and Anna Krantz on familysearch.org microfilm. Their Birth/Baptismal records were attached. However, we are going to need help with reading the documents.

The records were found on familysearch.org microfilm #2234626 Item 4 - DGS #008122017.
Kościół rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sadlno (Radziejów)
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/107504?availability=Family%20History%20Library

From what I can make out on the B/B records - Jan Grams was bon on December 26, 1810. On the microfilm, his record was Image #745.

Anna Krantz was born on January 27, 1816. Her record on the microfilm was Image #745.

I'm not sure if this is the marriage record or a banns of marriage. This record was Image #747.

Hope this helps some.
Trish



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C J Schmidt



Joined: 27 Mar 2022
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Location: Wisconsin, USA

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:41 pm      Post subject: Status of Sadlno Marriage Record Gaps
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Thank you Trish, for the documents and links. It has been awhile since I have been to a LDS church. All the online access at the link you sent were locked. * more notes *

I do have a 1840 Marriage record of Jan Grams and Anna Kranz, stating his parents being Krystian and Marianna.
So that birth document 'is' Jan's.
But, without his marriage record to Anna Albrecht, who gave birth to Tomasz (my gr grandfather) and 4 other children, I don't feel as though I can lay claim to the fact that the same Jan Grams had also been married to a Anna Kranz.

I will ask for a translation of both, the one you sent as well as the one I have, so that will be helpful moving forward.

Thank you again, Trish. Much appreciated.



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:50 pm      Post subject: Re: Status of Sadlno Marriage Record Gaps
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[quote="Trish"]
C J Schmidt wrote:
I am wondering if anyone knows the status of the record gaps in the Wielkopolski, Sadlno Marriage records, 1849-1850.
Were they just missed during the scan process, or books were in too bad of shape to scan, or missing or still being scanned??? Perhaps they are in a neighboring city? The gaps in death records is even worse?

I am looking for the Marriage record for Jan Grams and Anna Albrecht. I have the marriage record for his son Tomaz Grams translated, (my gr. grandfather) states his mothers name as Anna Albrecht. I have found the birth records for 5 children born to this couple from 1853 to 1861,

Am also wondering if the Marriage on the index of a Jan Grams to a Anna Kranz may have been a first marriage for Jan Grams. But the missing death records for the period make it a bit difficult to know whether or not Anna (Kranz) Grams, passed away or she had been married to a Kranz and he passed away and she remarried Jan Grams.

Any info on the record gaps for Wielkopolski, Sadlno records would be appreciated.


Hi C.J. & Trish,

Here is a link to a Genetyeka sub-site which lists where parish metrical books are held: https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=7435 The info on the site has been compiled by volunteers and is not necessarily complete but the locations listed are correct.

The gaps in indexed records are due to the fact that not all the metrical books for the parish are housed in archives in Poland. Since I have an ancestor who was baptized in Sadlno I know from personal experience that the parish is difficult to research. Something to consider is that it may be necessary to widen your search since due to the tough economic conditions in Russian controlled Poland aka Królestwo Polskie, especially during the second half of the 19th Century, individuals and families often moved from village to village and from parish to parish. It is also important to widen the search for marriage records since R.C weddings took place in the parish where the bride was residing which was not necessarily the same parish where she was baptized.

The go to archive for records from Sadlno is the Włocławek branch of the Polish National Archive in Toruń: https://www.genealogiawarchiwach.pl/ The records housed in the archive of the Diocese of Włocławek are only online in the form of LDS films on Family Search but the years are not right for what you would need. The marriage record what you found is the one which contains all the information that you need. The record found by Trish is what we would call today a part of a prenuptial file. The main information in that record is regarding the banns of marriage and the record lists the dates on which the bands were proclaimed. It is probably not worth taking up Marcel's time to translate it since the more detailed information is found in the actual marriage record would you have found.

There is an 1846 death record for Anna Grams which may possibly be that of the death of Jan’s possible first wife. However, the information is sketchy and does not line up perfectly which is not a surprise but it may be worth keeping as circumstantial evidence.

Not all of the index birth records for the children of Jan and Anna our civil transcripts in Polish. Most are in Latin in in columnar format. The Columns are lacking headings but it is not too difficult to determine what info is found in each column. Column 1 names of the village where the birth took place. Column 2 is the date of baptism. Column 3 is the name of the child. Column 4 is the date of birth. Column five is the name of the father. Column 6 is his age. Column seven is the name of the mother and column 8 is her age. Column 9 contains the names of the baptismal sponsors aka godparents. Images of the records of some of their children are attached. If you have any difficulty with the Latin records I’m sure that the dude who does the Latin translations would be willing to help, if you ask nicely.

Wishing you success,

Dave



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C J Schmidt



Joined: 27 Mar 2022
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Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:04 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you for all your info Dave.
I did have all the index versions from the books out of the archive link you provided. Been using that archive a lot. Very Happy
But didn't have the complete entries. So thank you, for the birth records.

The tip on where marriage records may be located as opposed to where they were born was also helpful, I had suspected that was the case, as that's how I had found other marriages for other members of my family.

Finally back up on (https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov) and have been searching in the neighboring communities of Kazubek, for the Jan Grams and Anna Albrecht marriage.
Sompolno seems promising, as I am finding a couple of Albrecht families in that area.

The death record of the Anna Grams that you referred to: I do have her 1842 birth record, same location. Her father was Jozef Grams on the birth record. Jozef Grams is also on that 1846 death record twice, so I am assuming it is her father.

All your input and info is much appreciated, thanks again.

Carla
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:36 pm      Post subject:
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C J Schmidt wrote:
Thank you for all your info Dave.
I did have all the index versions from the books out of the archive link you provided. Been using that archive a lot. Very Happy
But didn't have the complete entries. So thank you, for the birth records.

The tip on where marriage records may be located as opposed to where they were born was also helpful, I had suspected that was the case, as that's how I had found other marriages for other members of my family.

Finally back up on (https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov) and have been searching in the neighboring communities of Kazubek, for the Jan Grams and Anna Albrecht marriage.
Sompolno seems promising, as I am finding a couple of Albrecht families in that area.

The death record of the Anna Grams that you referred to: I do have her 1842 birth record, same location. Her father was Jozef Grams on the birth record. Jozef Grams is also on that 1846 death record twice, so I am assuming it is her father.

All your input and info is much appreciated, thanks again.

Carla


Hi Carla,

A handy site to use to look for a nearby parish where the marriage of Jan & Anna may have taken place is the website of the Diocese of Włocławek (during the 19th Century known as the Diocese of Włocławek-Kalisz). On the home page, https://www.diecezja.wloclawek.pl/ click on Parafie and then select Spis parafii z podziałem na dekanaty and then select Piotrowski and you will see the names and locations of nearby parishes which were in the same deanery (dekenat) as Sadlno. However, it is also possible that the marriage took place in a parish in another nearby deanery (dekenat). That is what took place in the marriage of Tomasz Grams & Wiktoria Kocińska. They married in the parish of Orle where Wiktoria resided. Orle is in dekenat Lubraniecki (powiat Radziejowski), which is in Kujawsko-Pomorskie rather than in Wielkopolskie. Attached are the marriage record and a pic of the church where the marriage took place. Although from 1815 through the end of WWI most of present day Wielkopolskie was under Prussian/German control as the Province of Posen (German: Provinz Posen; Polish: Prowincja Poznańska), a portion of southeastern Wielkopolskie was under Russian control as part of the Russian ruled Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie). From the BaSIA entry one can see that the marriage record of Tomasz & Wiktoria is housed in two Polish National Archives, the Włocławek branch of the archive in Toruń & the Konin branch of the national archive in Poznań—not an unusual situation since the record is a civil registration and often multiple copies of civil registrations were floating around.

Another decent search site for Wielkopolskie is BaSIA https://www.basia.famula.pl/ On that site it is possible to search by surname. The attached screenshot for the 2nd marriage of Maryanna Grams is from that site.

The contemporary parish church in Orle is the Church of St. Dorothy (św. Doroty) and is a wood church built in 1775 and renovated in 1976. Even now Tomasz & Wiktoria would certainly recognize the attached pic.

Wishing you continued successful research,

Dave

PS A grant from the EU funded the digitization of the records from the Włocławek branch archive and the creation of the website.



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C J Schmidt



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Post Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:49 pm      Post subject:
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Very Happy Thank you Dave.
Before I was even aware that the Polish Origins website existed, I had that copy of Tomasz Grams and Wiktorya Kocinski, marriage record translated. Very Happy
It was at BaSIA that I found both marriage records for Maryanna Grams sister of Tomasz, daughter of Jan Grams and Anna Albrecht.
The Poznan Project is another website that I have used.
Thank you for the clue about the records being located in more then one archive! And the church image too!
Very Happy
The Kocinski family lived in Stary Radziejow, and used the church in Radziejow for the births of their several of their children. Later, they move south towards Orle. I will use your info and locate an image of that church in Radziejow.
Alexsander Zawilski here at Polish Origins translated many, many of their records for me.

My project is to continue looking for that Jan Grams marriage to Anna Albrecht. For me knowing the parents names of Jan Grams and Anna Albrecht is important in furthering the research to an earlier date. ( that possible Jan Grams marriage to Anna Kranz is not feasible until confirmation on parents name is made ) The first name 'Jan' was used a lot and I don't want to just assume it is him.

A little nostalgia, image of my Great Grandfather and Great Grandmother and Grandmother STELLA.



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C J Schmidt



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Post Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 4:29 pm      Post subject:
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Quote Trish
""Hi C.J.
I was able to find a possible marriage record (or marriage announcement) for Jan Grams and Anna Krantz on familysearch.org microfilm. Their Birth/Baptismal records were attached. However, we are going to need help with reading the documents.

The records were found on familysearch.org microfilm #2234626 Item 4 - DGS #008122017.
Kościół rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sadlno (Radziejów)
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/107504?availability=Family%20History%20Library

From what I can make out on the B/B records - Jan Grams was bon on December 26, 1810. On the microfilm, his record was Image #745.

Anna Krantz was born on January 27, 1816. Her record on the microfilm was Image #745.

I'm not sure if this is the marriage record or a banns of marriage. This record was Image #747.

Hope this helps some.
Trish""


Thank you for the 3 civil records you provided to me. I have since confirmed the parents for Jan Grams with a marriage transcription of his marriage to Anna Albrecht.
Indeed it was Krystyan Grams and Marianna Pryske. This couple gave birth to 9 children that I have either found birth or marriage records for. So, all the records I found, link Krystyan Grams and Marianna Pryske as their parents. The year span for these children is from 1804 to 1828.
Polish Origins connected me with a person to do the translations as there were so many.

My question to you, Trish is this:
The link in the quote above is for Sadlno Parish (Radziejow).
Why would a "Civil Record", for Jan Grams birth in Nowy Swiat (Wilczyn) be found in the Sadlno Parish, LDS records???
Do you know of any Civil Records for Wilczyn, Konin, Poznań, Poland?
I'll re-upload that record again.

Here's the reason I am now asking. I recently went over to our local Family History Center church. I was looking for any 'more' Grams children born to Krystyan Grams and Marianna Pryske. Also hoping to find the marriage record for this couple. Well I did find a birth for what I believe is their 'first' child ,Andreas, (had marriage and death) for him.
Based on the year of that first born, starting backing up in years for a marriage. Well, I did find a marriage record in 1803 for a Christian Grams to a Marianna Woyciechowna.?.? Record states she is a virgo not a widow. Did her mother re-marry, Woyciechowna?
So, I am puzzled and hoping to find a civil record of this marriage.

I then found a 1785 Birth record for Marianna Priske, same city named as the marriage record above, at the same parish in Wilczyogora, in Poland, Poznań, Konin, Wilczyn, where all the children were born.

Who, what, where to find civil records?

Thank you in advance for any insights you may have.

C J



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C J Schmidt



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Post Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 5:25 pm      Post subject:
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Addendum:
I should have posted Marianna's Priske's birth record for context and city location, that coincides with the marriage to Christian Grams. How her last name becomes Woyciechowna is beyond my comprehension though.

I then found a 1785 Birth record for Marianna Priske, same city named as the marriage record above, at the same parish in Wilczyogora, in Poland, Poznań, Konin, Wilczyn, where all the children were born.



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Trish
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Post Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:10 pm      Post subject:
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Hi C. J.,
I am going to try to answer your questions the best I can. I know you will need advice from the forum for some questions I do not know how to answer.

Quote:
(Trish wrote:)The records were found on familysearch.org microfilm #2234626 Item 4 - DGS #008122017.
Kościół rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sadlno (Radziejów)
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/107504?availability=Family%20History%20Library

From what I can make out on the B/B records - Jan Grams was bon on December 26, 1810. On the microfilm, his record
was Image #745.

Anna Krantz was born on January 27, 1816. Her record on the microfilm was Image #745.


I went onto to familysearch.org and did a search for microfilm for the town of Sadlno (Radziejow). This is the link I went to:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&placeId=65521&query=%2Bplace%3A%22Poland%2C%20Bydgoszcz%2C%20Radziej%C3%B3w%2C%20Sadlno%22&subjectsOpen=547551-50

The three records I posted were Roman Catholic church records. The records were a baptismal for Jan Grams, a baptismal for Anna Krantz, and a possible marriage record for Jan Grams. They were not Civil records. (Note: It seems the only way to access those records is to go to a Family History Center.) (I guess it was by luck that I found them.)

Dave wrote a wonderful and informative response to you. He provided Civil records and information as to where to look for more records.

Quote:
I have since confirmed the parents for Jan Grams with a marriage transcription of his marriage to Anna Albrecht.
Indeed it was Krystyan Grams and Marianna Pryske. This couple gave birth to 9 children that I have either found birth or marriage records for. So, all the records I found, link Krystyan Grams and Marianna Pryske as their parents. The year span for these children is from 1804 to 1828. Polish Origins connected me with a person to do the translations as there were so many.


What wonderful news! Happy to hear you found so much information.

Quote:
My question to you, Trish is this:
The link in the quote above is for Sadlno Parish (Radziejow).


I do not know how to answer this question. When you went to the FHC is this where you found information? I apologize if some how I gave you the wrong link. However, this is where I found those three church records for Jan Grams, Anna Krantz, and the possible wedding information.


Quote:
Do you know of any Civil Records for Wilczyn, Konin, Poznań, Poland?


I do not know of Civil records for this town. I hope someone in the forum can help answer this question.

Family search has church records for the town.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/181743?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Quote:
Here's the reason I am now asking. I recently went over to our local Family History Center church. I was looking for any 'more' Grams children born to Krystyan Grams and Marianna Pryske. Also hoping to find the marriage record for this couple. Well I did find a birth for what I believe is their 'first' child ,Andreas, (had marriage and death) for him.
Based on the year of that first born, starting backing up in years for a marriage. Well, I did find a marriage record in 1803 for a Christian Grams to a Marianna Woyciechowna.?.? Record states she is a virgo not a widow. Did her mother re-marry, Woyciechowna? So, I am puzzled and hoping to find a civil record of this marriage.

I then found a 1785 Birth record for Marianna Priske, same city named as the marriage record above, at the same parish in Wilczyogora, in Poland, Poznań, Konin, Wilczyn, where all the children were born.

Who, what, where to find civil records?

Thank you in advance for any insights you may have.

C J


Hopefully someone on the forum can help with these questions.

I hope this answers your questions. I also hope someone on the forum has more insightful information for you.

Regards,
Trish
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Post Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 5:05 pm      Post subject: Wilczyn
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Hi,
You've gotten a lot of help already. Almost 4,500 records from the parish of Wilczyn can be found here:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/zespol?p_p_id=Zespol&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_Zespol_javax.portlet.action=zmienWidok&_Zespol_nameofjsp=jednostki&_Zespol_id_zespolu=22027

Best regards,
-Barb
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 9:27 am      Post subject:
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Hi CJ,

Within your post, above, is this question:

"My question to you, Trish is this:
The link in the quote above is for Sadlno Parish (Radziejow).
Why would a "Civil Record", for Jan Grams birth in Nowy Swiat (Wilczyn) be found in the Sadlno Parish, LDS records???"

If you go back through this whole thread, you will find an answer. The link that Trish provided is correct. That particular part of the microfilm is "Dokumenty do akt małżeństw 1839-1844, 1847-1855, 1846," or as Dave called it, "pre-nuptial" info. The birth info included there is just supporting evidence for the fact that he was not already married, that is why it is from a different church.

Sophia
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Trish
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:35 am      Post subject:
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Hi CJ and Sophia,

CJ, this post might help you understand "Civil" records. Dave gave such an informative response to my question about Civil records. I hope this helps you.

https://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?p=61751&highlight=1874#61751

Regards,
Trish
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C J Schmidt



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Post Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:30 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi CJ,

Within your post, above, is this question:

"My question to you, Trish is this:
The link in the quote above is for Sadlno Parish (Radziejow).
Why would a "Civil Record", for Jan Grams birth in Nowy Swiat (Wilczyn) be found in the Sadlno Parish, LDS records???"

If you go back through this whole thread, you will find an answer. The link that Trish provided is correct. That particular part of the microfilm is "Dokumenty do akt małżeństw 1839-1844, 1847-1855, 1846," or as Dave called it, "pre-nuptial" info. The birth info included there is just supporting evidence for the fact that he was not already married, that is why it is from a different church.

Sophia


Thank you Trish and Sophia,

I think Sophia nailed it here (above) that was part of my "assumption" but I couldn't wrap my head around why Baptismal "copies" stamped "Wilczygóra" would be in the Sadlno (Radziejow) records.
My other clue was, Dokumenty do akt małżeństw, unlike the other records which were strictly parish records.

To: BarbOslo
Yes, after the confirmation of documents from Trish, I was able to find lots and lots of Grams family records linked to Krystyan Grams and Marianna (Priske) in the Wilczyn, Wilczygóra, Parish.

Not sure whether I will be able to find Krystyan Grams birth record (abt 1779 based on age on Death record)
Several Grams families just to the east of Konin county, thinking that would be the location of the Prussian, Russian front.
My grandmother did tell me that her father Tomas Grams was a German, soldier. But that family has 'at least' 3 generations, of Grams, living in that region of Wielkopolska.

Thank you all, for your input and information.

Thank you especially Trish, for those records you had given to me. That became the key, for many other records.

Sincerely,
CJ
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