Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:52 pm
Post subject: Seeking help finding ancestor's birth records
Hello!
My great-grandfather emigrated to the United States from Poland in 1907. Members of my family have been looking off and on for the better part of three decades now for information on his early life- I was just recently able to find his Ellis Island arrival information for the first time yesterday (due to an error in indexing of the document). I'm returning my attention to try to find his birth records, and have been having trouble doing so. The information I have collected now is as follows:
His name is Frank Zigmund Betner (Franz/Franziszek Betner in the ship manifests)- he was born on 15 January 1891, but there are a variety of different dates I've seen listed in January. The ship manifest lists him as having been born in 1887, but this may be as he was traveling alone at the age of 16. His hometown (as listed on the Ellis Island documentation and other sources we have) is Sławęcin. There are numerous municipalities with that name listed in the Skorowidz Gazetteer Online (I found 11 on page 1560). I know that he was from Russian-occupied Poland, and anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that he was from Northern Poland but I am unsure of the accuracy. I have looked through Radzanów parish documents and didn't find anything. His parents as listed on his marriage certificate are John Betner and Frances Koreck.
I've continued to try to look through parish documents, but I haven't had any luck and I think I'm getting a bit scattered in my searching. I'm hoping to find either a birth certificate or baptismal record for him (or both if they exist), and ideally try to trace information backwards from there. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could give me some pointers on where to continue (whether that involves which Sławęcin candidates locations to focus on based on location/Russian status, record collections to look through, or offices to email). As mentioned before I've primarily been focusing on parish documents, but there seem to be a lot of different places where I can search. Thank you for any potential guidance you may be able to provide me!
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking help finding ancestor's birth records
| latticeman wrote: | Hello!
My great-grandfather emigrated to the United States from Poland in 1907. Members of my family have been looking off and on for the better part of three decades now for information on his early life- I was just recently able to find his Ellis Island arrival information for the first time yesterday (due to an error in indexing of the document). I'm returning my attention to try to find his birth records, and have been having trouble doing so. The information I have collected now is as follows:
His name is Frank Zigmund Betner (Franz/Franziszek Betner in the ship manifests)- he was born on 15 January 1891, but there are a variety of different dates I've seen listed in January. The ship manifest lists him as having been born in 1887, but this may be as he was traveling alone at the age of 16. His hometown (as listed on the Ellis Island documentation and other sources we have) is Sławęcin. There are numerous municipalities with that name listed in the Skorowidz Gazetteer Online (I found 11 on page 1560). I know that he was from Russian-occupied Poland, and anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that he was from Northern Poland but I am unsure of the accuracy. I have looked through Radzanów parish documents and didn't find anything. His parents as listed on his marriage certificate are John Betner and Frances Koreck.
I've continued to try to look through parish documents, but I haven't had any luck and I think I'm getting a bit scattered in my searching. I'm hoping to find either a birth certificate or baptismal record for him (or both if they exist), and ideally try to trace information backwards from there. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could give me some pointers on where to continue (whether that involves which Sławęcin candidates locations to focus on based on location/Russian status, record collections to look through, or offices to email). As mentioned before I've primarily been focusing on parish documents, but there seem to be a lot of different places where I can search. Thank you for any potential guidance you may be able to provide me! |
Hi,
Can you attach all the documents you own? The manifest and the wedding record can be important. As you mentioned several places in Poland are named Sławęcin. I think that it could be Sławęcin in Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship or Subcarpathian Voivodeship.
Best regards,
-Barb
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:10 am
Post subject:
Hi Latticeman and Barb,
I did find a copy of the marriage record for Franciszek Betner. There aren't any clues on it as to where he is from except Russia.
I did find a World War I draft card that lists Warsaw, Poland, Russia as his place of birth. I believe this is Franciszek Betner since he is working for Matthew Bries and later marries Catherine Bries, daughter of Matthew Bries.
Regards,
Trish
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:33 am
Post subject:
| Trish wrote: |
Hi Latticeman and Barb,
I did find a copy of the marriage record for Franciszek Betner. There aren't any clues on it as to where he is from except Russia.
I did find a World War I draft card that lists Warsaw, Poland, Russia as his place of birth. I believe this is Franciszek Betner since he is working for Matthew Bries and later marries Catherine Bries, daughter of Matthew Bries.
Regards,
Trish |
Hi Latticeman and Trish,
I have been looking for something more for two days. 11 places in Poland are called Sławęcin. Sławęcin, Subcarpathian Voivodeship (south-east Poland) was the place that I had thought. Unfortunately, I found nothing there. I'll look into what you found, Trish.
Best,
-Barb
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2718
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:38 am
Post subject:
| BarbOslo wrote: | | Trish wrote: |
Hi Latticeman and Barb,
I did find a copy of the marriage record for Franciszek Betner. There aren't any clues on it as to where he is from except Russia.
I did find a World War I draft card that lists Warsaw, Poland, Russia as his place of birth. I believe this is Franciszek Betner since he is working for Matthew Bries and later marries Catherine Bries, daughter of Matthew Bries.
Regards,
Trish |
Hi Latticeman and Trish,
I have been looking for something more for two days. 11 places in Poland are called Sławęcin. Sławęcin, Subcarpathian Voivodeship (south-east Poland) was the place that I had thought. Unfortunately, I found nothing there. I'll look into what you found, Trish.
Best,
-Barb |
Hi Latticeman, Barb & Trish,
I would like to offer a few unsolicited thoughts and comments. Of the 11 villages with the name Sławęcin only four fit the bill of being in the Russian partition. They are: the village you researched in the Parish of Radzanów, the one in the province of Łódz, the one in Konin (although it is in Wielkopolskie the region was under Russian control) and the one in powiat Włocławski (parish of Chodecz). The remaining villages were in the German or the Austrian Partitions.However there is a major problem in trying to find his birth record in a parish connected to the village of Sławęcin—All the available documents state that the village was his last place of residence but not the place of his birth. The situation in the Russian partition during the last half of the 19th century and the first years of the 20th century actually make it unlikely that he was born there. In 1864 and edict issued by the czar emancipated the peasants from their feudal obligations. The Russian authorities promised land reform in order to provide the now landless peasants with land. Unfortunately, not only did the land reforms fail to decrease the number of landless peasants but they had the opposite result. The number of landless peasants in the Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie) increased from 220,000 in 1870 to 849,000 in 1891—a dramatic increase in 21 years. This situation resulted in migration from village to village on the part of peasants seeking employment. This in turn meant that many young men who decided to emigrate did not live in the village of their birth at the time that they left Europe. It was not unusual for a young man to have lived in 10 or more villages from the time that he was born until the time of emigration. This meant that the last place of residence was definitely not the place of the individual’s birth.
The civil marriage return which Trish found has the potential to help make Frank’s place of birth and baptism clear. The priest who officiated at the wedding for years had been the pastor of Holy Spirit church in Luxembourg Iowa. Although it is unlikely that the priest spoke Polish, it is possible that he entered Frank’s place of birth as a more specific location than simply Russia. Here are two links to the parish— one gives a history of the parish (which confirms that the priest named in the civil record was the pastor of Holy Spirit Church) and the other provides contact information: https://catholicmasstime.org/church/holy-trinity/9958/
https://www.lasallepastorate.com/holy-trinity Although it is a long shot contacting the parish and requesting an image of the entry of the marriage in the parish marriage register may provide direction for research in Europe. Be sure to specify that you would like an image of the register rather than a certificate. A simple marriage certificate would be of no help.
Wishing you success,
Dave
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2023 1:58 pm
Post subject:
Hello all,
Thank you for your helpful responses! I don't know if I've seen the actual marriage record before, so it's great to take a look at it. Unfortunately I have a copy of the marriage certificate from the parish records already and it doesn't seem to provide any additional information (attached below). I will check with extended family members to see if they have any information about where he was born- the declaration of intention does seem to indicate that he was born in Sławęcin, and I think the family consensus was that he was from somewhere north of Warsaw. This means the likely candidate is the Sławęcin in the parish of Radzanów, but I haven't had much luck finding him or any other Betners in those records so far.
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Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:50 pm
Post subject:
I think that this is baptismal record for Franciszek Detnerski https://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,396601,5 (number 19, Sławęcin)
Could the surname Detnerski be transformed into Betner?
_________________
Monika
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Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:42 pm
Post subject:
Hi Everyone,
Here is the marriage record for Jan Detnerski and Franciszka Kosek Marrriage that Monika metioned. It's on familysearch.org.
Kościół rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Radzanów (Mława)
Record Act #12
Film #1895308 - DGS Film #810641
Image: 373
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-C9FL-9?i=372&cat=141080
I am also attaching the record in case the link doesn't work.
Regards,
Trish
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 10:35 am
Post subject:
In the birth record that I've attached the place, date, and parents' first names suggest that this is the correct one. The connection to Stanisław and Antonina from Radzanów also seems rather convincing.
But I don't know if it is possible that Frank's surname in Poland was "Detnerski" and it was changed into Betner and never appears in any of his documents. Also, I don't see his second name (Zygmunt) in this birth record. So I don't know if it is just a coincidence or not...
_________________
Monika
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:37 pm
Post subject:
Hi Monika and Trish,
Thank you for your help finding these records! I would strongly suspect that they are associated with my great-grandfather (the similarity between the names, the link to the Ostrowskis, and the timing + location matching up makes it incredibly likely). My great-grandfather never spoke much about his parents or his life in Poland, so unfortunately I don't think I have a way to confirm from that if there were any alternate spellings of Betner or his parents' names.
I'd love to dive more into these documents to figure out what they say, but I'm having a hard time deciphering them. Are there any recommendations on how to parse these old parish documents? I'd be interested both in tracing back the lineage as far as I can take it, as well as figuring out what happened to my great-great-grandparents after 1907 (as my family doesn't know anything about their lives at all). I see that death records are not indexed after 1918. Should I reach out directly to the parish or are there alternative sources of death records that I might be able to find somewhere else?
Thank you again!
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:58 pm
Post subject:
Hi Everyone,
Going by what Monika posted, here is the birth record for Francizek Detnerski (Betner).
I found this website to be helpful when trying to figure out what a name would be in Russian.
https://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/russian.htm
Hopefully someone on the forum will help to answer the rest of your questions.
Regards,
Trish
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