jwaldo11
Joined: 28 Jul 2021
Replies: 26
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:36 pm
Post subject: Lutynski/Krugelski in Suwalki Update!
Hello to Cynthia, Marcel, and Dave (and anyone else following along  )
I have had a great breakthrough after searching from a different angle. I decided to give my poor brain a break from Polish and use my mother tongue for a while. So I looked for the son John born in England! With some great help I was able to find his birth record, not in England after all but in Carfin, Scotland.
I will attach that record because it includes what I believe is the marriage date for Antoni and Antonina Lutynski of 5 May, 1900. It lists the location as Holytown, England...which is a big surprise to me, but I suppose not entirely impossible that they could have gotten married in England, not in Poland. Apparently Antoni worked as a laborer in the coal mines.
Another big surprise is the birth of a son before John, Stanislaus, in 1900, who apparently died back in Poland before they immigrated in 1906 because I have seen no sign of him before today, other than a mention that Antonina had 5 children, 4 living, on a birth record. I would like to find further record of his existence; possibly a death record in Suwalki.
The third surprise is Antonina's possible surname, I can't read it from the birth record of Stanislaus or John so will attach both and perhaps one of the readers here will be able to understand it. It looks like a crude misspelling of Kruhelski or possibly an entirely different surname.
Thank you for following along, this is very exciting! I believe I am closer to finding their marriage certificate and, thus, Antoni's accurate last name.
Jessica
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:20 pm
Post subject:
Congratulations! This is a huge breakthrough!
I read Antonina’s maiden name in the document as “Crowvilsky or Crowsilsky”. Either would, in my opinion, be an attempt of the scribe to write what was being spoken to him with a Polish accent. Remember, neither of them were literate at the time, so don’t get too caught up in the spellings. I would accept the spelling offered in the documents in Poland as more accurate, but even those went through a transliteration from Spoken Polish to written Russian!
I will search the records for Stanislaw’s death in Wizajny, and let you know.
Did they also marry in Scotland?
Again, well done you!
Cynthia
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:25 pm
Post subject:
These records also adds to their personal stories.
Their marriage is shown as May 5,1900 and the birth of Stanislaw is Oct 1900. She was with child before they married which was not unusual.
Cynthia
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jwaldo11
Joined: 28 Jul 2021
Replies: 26
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:55 pm
Post subject:
Another breakthrough!
Using the website http://scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ I was able to find a civil marriage record for an Antonina Crowvilsky in the same Parish and Village on May 5, 1900! The name listed is to Antoni but the surname is very difficult to read. Could this be the illusive mystery surname I have been tracking?
Also difficult to decipher are the names of parents of Antoni but I believe I see Smool Salickias?, farmer and his wife Rockley? Salickias? U?. S.? Grudickais? It does not list a birth place for Antoni though but perhaps this gives us further clues or someone here could recognize these surnames?
I agree this does add to their personal story; if they truly were of different religions as well as bearing a child out of wedlock it might explain the marriage in England vs at home in Poland. That was a big surprise to me. Also, her surname being spelled differently does make sense given the language barriers, etc.
I am attaching the document I found in hopes that anyone can help me read and recognize the new surnames of Antoni's parents as well as his listed surname at the time of his marriage. I will include it as both JPEG and PDF in hopes it is able to be seen.
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:19 pm
Post subject:
Wow! This changes everything….
First, there is no record of Stanislaw’s death in Wizajny parish. I suggest you search for it in Scotland.
As to the names…what I see
For groom
Antoni Satickias
Father - Smool Satickias
Mother - Rockley Grudickais or Grudiskais
For bride
Antonina Crowvilsky
Father - Stanislaw Crowvilsky
Mother - Annie Skivish
Cynthia
Last edited by mcdonald0517 on Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jwaldo11
Joined: 28 Jul 2021
Replies: 26
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm
Post subject:
I agree, it does change quite a bit! Which gives me mixed emotions... 
I cannot find Stanislaw's death in Scotland, either under the surname Miller (on the 1901 Scotland Census they adopted the surname "Miller" but appear to have abandoned it soon after)or Lutynski, but will keep searching.
I am somewhat concerned about Antonina's mother's maiden name being different than our finding of Anuszkwiecz and wish I also had locations listed on her marriage record to help verify with further records in Poland. Perhaps I could try plugging in the new surnames into Polish search engines in the areas you have been trying to see if anything appears.
Thank you again for your assistance! Perhaps I will change my focus to these new surnames for a while!
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:31 pm
Post subject:
Also, Smool is transcribed version of the spoken Yiddish name "Shmuel or Shmul" which means Samuel. This is a Jewish given name.
Further, Rockey is transcribed version of the spoken Yiddish name "Rokhl/Rokhe" which means Rachel. Also, a Jewish given name.
Cynthia
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:38 pm
Post subject:
I agree. This puts into question the Polish records we found. Hold onto them lightly... but these new discoveries of yours are shifting the entire focus of research.
Genealogy is a wild ride!!!
Cynthia
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:44 pm
Post subject:
I just had a wild idea that may actually hold some reality....
Remember that all the information was spoken to the scribe at the marriage office. What if Antonina said her mothers name was Antonina Anuskiewicz, but the scribe heard the surname as "Annie Skivish"? Sometimes, you have to use your imagination and speak the words out loud quickly to see what they sound like and how a non-Polish writer would write them down in English: Anu - Annie skiewicz - Skivish
Hold onto those Polish records from Wizjany. They may still be important.
Cynthia
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jwaldo11
Joined: 28 Jul 2021
Replies: 26
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:51 pm
Post subject:
 Genius thought! It all may be more connected than we think...when I first got the Scotland connection I thought it was all unraveling but here things are tying back together.
Thank you for the interpretation with the names, that helps quite a bit to understand and possibly with English search engines.
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:26 pm
Post subject:
The Jewish surnames for Antoni will be far more difficult. Based on what he spoke as given names for his parents, it seems he gave the scribe the Yiddish forms of his parents given and surnames. Think of the layers of translation/transliteration going on here:
In Scotland: Yiddish to English transliteration
In Poland: Yiddish to Polish to Russian transliteration
In America: he was already using Lutynski??? or maybe he immigrated under his legal Jewish name?
And, there still is no village for Antoni....
And, once you find the village, any records for Antoni in Poland would be found in Jewish Synagogue registers - not Catholic parishes. His parents would have taken him for presentation at their local Synagogue.
Your discoveries have proven some pieces of your family lore: he was born into a Jewish family; he changed his name to Lutynski.
And we keep on looking....
Cynthia
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:29 am
Post subject:
Good morning,
It May be helpful if you had some historical context for your ancestors. Here is a Wiki article with maps of the Suwalki region and it’s relationship to Poland, Russia, and Lithuania over the years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suwałki_Region#19th_century
Also, I found this wonderful thesis about the migration of Lithuanian Jews that should give you some sense of what Antoni and his family were up against…. And reasons for immigration. It is really worth reading.
https://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/academics/colleges/hclas/geog/geog_shapirothesis2013.pdf
Per this article, a major factor in deciding where to go is having a relative in that location. Keep in mind that Antoni or Antonina may have chosen Scotland because one of them had a relative there. Perhaps Antoni even chose to adopt that relative’s surname - Lutynski - after he arrived. I notice there are other Lutynski family members in Holytown - I saw their records on the website you provided. Perhaps you can contact their living descendants in Scotland. Just a thought.
Best,
Cynthia
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:23 pm
Post subject:
Jessica, Cynthia,
If you haven't already done so, it might make sense to pursue baptismal records if the children were raised Catholic. These records often have information about where the parents were from. They can be especially helpful if the baptism took place in a Polish parish. Your search area for the records would span Poland, England, Scotland and the US. I believe in your prior post you said a couple of the children were born in Wisconsin.
Diane
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Lutynski/Krugelski in Suwalki Update!
| jwaldo11 wrote: | Hello to Cynthia, Marcel, and Dave (and anyone else following along )
I have had a great breakthrough after searching from a different angle. I decided to give my poor brain a break from Polish and use my mother tongue for a while. So I looked for the son John born in England! With some great help I was able to find his birth record, not in England after all but in Carfin, Scotland.
I will attach that record because it includes what I believe is the marriage date for Antoni and Antonina Lutynski of 5 May, 1900. It lists the location as Holytown, England...which is a big surprise to me, but I suppose not entirely impossible that they could have gotten married in England, not in Poland. Apparently Antoni worked as a laborer in the coal mines.
Another big surprise is the birth of a son before John, Stanislaus, in 1900, who apparently died back in Poland before they immigrated in 1906 because I have seen no sign of him before today, other than a mention that Antonina had 5 children, 4 living, on a birth record. I would like to find further record of his existence; possibly a death record in Suwalki.
The third surprise is Antonina's possible surname, I can't read it from the birth record of Stanislaus or John so will attach both and perhaps one of the readers here will be able to understand it. It looks like a crude misspelling of Kruhelski or possibly an entirely different surname.
Thank you for following along, this is very exciting! I believe I am closer to finding their marriage certificate and, thus, Antoni's accurate last name.
Jessica |
Hi Jessica & Cynthia,
The records from Scotland add an important dimension to the research but they also bring along new questions. Did Antoni & Antonina know each other in Poland or did they meet either in Scotland or in transit? If Antoni’s father owned a large farm in Poland why did Antoni decide to immigrate? Did he not expect to inherit? In Scotland he worked as a coal miner—not an easy or fun job. As Cynthia mentioned, some of the family history by his daughter Rose was accurate, other items (like the Kaiser) thing were no accurate, and other items need to be verified.
A few thoughts...When you search for his birth name it will not be Antoni, which is not a Jewish name. It appears that he converted to Catholicism before the wedding but did he leave Europe with the intention of converting and marrying Antonina or was that decision made in Scotland? (Even during the late 19th & early 20th Centuries he would not have needed to convert in order to marry her. He could have obtained a dispensation and married her.) As far as the spelling of surnames is concerned…It is no surprise that there are variations. The 1940 Fed Census states that Antonina had no formal education and that Antoni completed 8 years of education but given that other documents contain his mark rather than his signature it appears that his education was probably in Hebrew and thus he was not able to sign his name using the Latin/Roman alphabet. The info in the 1940 Census was provided by their son Edward.
The marriage record contains several important details. The first is that they married in a Catholic religious ceremony prior to the civil registration. The civil record notes “According to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church.” Catholicism was definitely a minority faith in Scotland at the time. The established Church of Scotland was the major faith. It may be worthwhile to try to locate the religions record of his baptism, their son John’s baptism and their marriage in Scotland. The Catholic parish of St. Francis Xavier (founded 1862) in Carfin would probably be the place to contact since they lived in Carfin at the time. (Cf. Attached contact info) Ask for a copy of the entries in the parish registers not just baptismal and marriage certificates. A backup site would be that of the diocese of which Carfin is a part: https://www.rcdom.org.uk/ Another useful tidbit is that Antonina’s mother, Anna, was deceased when they married in 1900.
It happens that I did quite a bit of research in that part of Scotland after my nephew asked me to research his wife’s ancestry after the birth of their first daughter. Here are links to info about coal mining in Scotland. Included is a description of Barracks Square (company housing) where they lived in Carfin: http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/index.html and http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/9.html Attached is a picture of company housing at Hamilton Farm in Lanarkshire. It may or may not resemble the company housing in Carfin but it does help to visualize coalo miners’ living conditions.
Congrats on all your progress.
Wishing you continued success,
Dave
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:13 pm
Post subject:
Hi Jessica,
I have been searching through the Parish books for the village of Wizajny for Antonina’s family.
There are many records for her siblings and extended family. Here is a list of records I found:
1) Birth record for Antonina's father, Stanislaw Kruhelski, born 1850 #108; parents Tomasz Kruhelski and Teresa Wadilewski
2) Birth record for Antonina's mother, Maryanna Andruszkiewicz, born 1852 #86; parents Franciszek Andruszkiewicz and Helena Zaborowski (note it seems she was baptized as Maryanna but went by Anna)
3) I think Stanislaw and Anna married in 1870 but there is no online parish book for this year. I believe they were married in 1870 because I searched the books for 1869 and from 1871 to 1875 and there’s no record of their marriage in those years note: their first child was born in 1875. That does not mean the book doesn't exist; it just means it was not part of the online collection I was reviewing.
4) Children of Stanislaw and Anna:
1875 #11 – Wladyslaw
1878 #24 – Franciszka
1880 - Antonina (you already have this one)
1882 #37 – Stanislaw
1884 #85 - Anna
1886 - #157 Victoria ?? or Wladyslawa ?? (I can't translate the name from Russian)
1891 #4 - Veronica
1896 - Kamilla (per Dave's discovery of Kamilla's marriage index in Geneteka; no birth record found)
5) I have found a 1896 #31 death record for Maryanna Kruhelski. You will need it translated to confirm it is her. If it is, then Antonina was about 16 years old when her mother died.
There are also many extended family members for Stanislaw. I have seen records for people I think are his brothers or cousins: Anthony, Pawel, Kazimierz, Wincenty, Jerzy, and Franciszek. Either way there are many Kruhelski families in Wizajny which means it is very likely there are living relatives today.
As to the surnames, I believe the original spelling is actually Kruhelski as written on Stanislaw’s Polish birth record and all of his brothers / cousins records. Note: Records prior to 1868 were written in Polish and 1868 and after are written in Russian. The misspellings likely occurred in the transition from Polish to Russian, Plus, as Dave pointed out these individuals were farmers and may have been illiterate. I also believe the original surname for Anna is Anduszkiewicz for the same reasons. If you get the Polish birth records for Stanislaw and Anna translated, you will be able to get the precise spellings of the surnames. Translation will also provide you with the accurate surnames of the parents of Stanislaw and Anna.
If you would like images for all nine of the records I found, please send me a private email through the forum.
Finally, there are Civil Registation records for Jewish births, deaths, marriages in the village of Wizajny. However, they are locked and can only be viewed from a Family Research Center or participating library near you. This may come in handy once you discover Antoni’s original name. I would look here first because it is most likely that Antoni and Antonina lived near each other, i.e., in or around Wizjany. Here is the link to the Jewish records:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/29745?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Again, send me a private email via Polish Origins if you want the images of the 9 records I found.
Best,
Cynthia
Last edited by mcdonald0517 on Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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