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Sophia
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Help Me Get Started? :(

Good morning,

I want to take a step back, and return to what you originally wrote about the surnames in the family. Specifically, this:

CLPolish2024 wrote:

My maternal grandfather was named Nathan Gross, he was born in NY, USA in 1925. His mother (my maternal great grandmother) was named Hannah Garron, born in 1904. We believe she was from Lithuania, and we also believe her name used to be Hannah Feinberg. It is possible that Hannah Garron's parents, who died before WWII, lived in Vilnius or Vilno. Her parents' names appear to be Fainberg, Nochim and Gertel (my maternal great great grandparents).

Hannah was married to my maternal great grandfather, Isse Gross, who was born in approximately 1896. We have been told he is from Warsaw area. His original last name was Perlstein, before it got changed to Gross in NY. He likely went to NY in the 1910s.

Isse's parents (my maternal great great grandparents) were Bella and Solomon Perlstein.

It would be helpful to know whether the story about the surname changes is a story that has been passed down in your family, or whether this is your interpretation of what you are reading on the indexed marriage record. My guess is that it is the latter. You are saying that Hannah was born Hannah Feinberg, changed her name to Hannah Garron and married to become Hannah Gross. Also, you are saying that Isse was born Isse Perlstein and changed his name to Isse Gross. While this is possible, I think it is not correct. What the marriage record says is that Hannah's father was Nochim Garron and her mother's maiden name was Gertel Feinberg. For Isse, it says that his father was Solomon Gross and his mother was Bella Perlstein. In both cases, you are reading it as if the mother's maiden name applies also to the father and the child, which is why I think you are misinterpreting the document. The way the record should be read is that the father's surname is the same as the child's surname (well of course they are not children at this age, but you know what I mean). It is a marriage record for Isse Gross, so his father's surname is understood to be Gross. It is a marriage record for Hannah Garron, so her father's surname is understood to be Garron.

My recommendation is that you look for ship passenger lists for Hannah Garron and for Isse Gross. My other recommendation is that you obtain an actual copy of the 1924 Manhattan marriage record so that you can see more clearly whether the handwriting leads you to any other spelling of these names, to assist in your search.

Best regards,
Sophia

CLPolish2024

Joined: 12 Nov 2024
Replies: 16
Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:27 am Post subject:

It is a family story that they changed the names from Perlstein to Gross and Feinberg to Garron - and it seems to be supported by the documentation, but it is totally possible we are interpreting this incorrectly. If we are interpreting it incorrectly and the story is false - then perhaps that makes everything a bit easier, as there is no name change to complicate things!

Do you know how I can get these documents (marriage certificate, ship manifest)? I have searched for Hannah Garron and for Isse Gross in ship manifests and found nothing. Also, for the marriage certificate, it seems I need to pay in order to have the official one?

I have also been told it could be useful to ask USCIS if there is a document for Isse Gross for his naturalization.

Thank you again for the help, this is really useful.

Trish
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Joined: 23 Sep 2020
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:22 pm Post subject:

CLPolish2024 wrote:

Hi C and Sophia.

C- I agree with Sophia with how the names are on the marriage transcriptions. On the following websites: family search, ancestry.com, and Find my Past, they are all showing the following information on your ancestors.

Groom's Name: Isse Gross
Father: Solomon Gross
Mother: Bella Perlstein

Bride's Name Hannah Garron
Fther's Name: Nochim Garron
Mother's Name: Gertel Feinberg

If you would like to get the marriage record, here is the link for the form to use. It will cost you $22.00.

https://www.health.ny.gov/forms/doh-4384.pdf

Can I ask what religion your ancestors were? By any chance is there a baptismal record for Nathan Gross that might have information about where his parents were from?

Also, do we have the correct spelling of your ancestor's names? An example: Frank could be for Francis, Franz, Franciszek, etc. So what could the correct name for "Isse"? Is Hannah really Hannah, Hana, Chana, Henia?

You can keep trying to find a ship's manifest on this website. I've been searching, but I'm not having much luck finding any clues.
https://stevemorse.org/ellis2/ellisgold.html

What information do you have on the death of Isse and Hannah? I see them in the 1925 New York State Census and then they disappear. I see Nathan going to Massachusetts to get married. He dies in Washington. Did the family travel together? Or did Isse and Hannah stay in New York? Do you have any other documents on the family?

Regards,
Trish

CLPolish2024

Joined: 12 Nov 2024
Replies: 16
Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:21 pm Post subject:

Thank you for all this!

They were all Jewish. So they may show up in Holocaust records, especially the family that was unable to leave Europe.

As far as I know, it was Isadore (Isse was a nickname we believe) and Hannah. I have not seen other spellings, but it is possible that Hannah was spelled differently, we believe she was from Lithuania.

Isse died around 30-40 years old I believe, or younger. When Hannah died she was much older, I think she lived into her 80s but spent a good majority of her life in an asylum in NYC. Neither of them left New York. Due to Isse's death and Hannah entering the asylum, Nathan ended up with we believe his cousins, with the family name Olesky. He eventually traveled to Washington alone with his wife Alice.

I was able to find one other document that is likely when Nathan Gross signed up for the draft.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2CR-DMVB

Would it be very useful for me to purchase the marriage certificate copy? Perhaps it has some details we aren't seeing?

Sophia
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:00 pm Post subject:

I think it would be well worth it to get the marriage certificate, using the link provided by Trish. What you are seeing online is an index entry, created by someone who was reading a handwritten document and doing their best to interpret it. My best guess is that Hannah (or Chana, good thinking, Trish) had a surname that was not Garron, but something that when handwritten could look like Garron. It would be useful to see the original handwritten entry. What I don't know is whether it will include the marriage license application. At any rate, I have looked for ship manifests for Hannah and am not finding her arrival. I do see her in the census for 1930, 1940 and 1950 in Islip, at a mental health institution. With Isse, there are simply so many men whose first name began with the letters "Is" and whose last name was Gross that it is very difficult to determine which ship manifest might be his. It would be so beneficial if you could find a religious record of his marriage, or as Trish suggested for Nathan's birth, which would give a clue as to where specifically he came from.

Trish
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Joined: 23 Sep 2020
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:03 pm Post subject:

CLPolish2024 wrote:

Hi C,

Sophia was on the right track about Hannah being in the asylum. Hannah was in the asylum in the 1930, 1940, and 1950 census. Here is the information for the census records. Here are the links for the records on family search.

1930 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RCS-CTK?view=index&action=view

Name Hannah Gross
[Hannah Bross]
Birth Year abt 1905
Gender Female
Race White
Age in 1930 25
Birthplace Russia
Marital Status Married
Home in 1930 Islip, Suffolk, New York, USA
Map of Home Islip, Suffolk, New York
Institution Central Islip State Hospital
Attended School No
Able to Read and Write Yes
Language Spoken Un
Naturalization Alien
Able to Speak English Yes
Occupation Inmate

1940 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9MB-3SNY?view=index&action=view

Name Hannah Gross
Age 36
Estimated Birth Year abt 1904
Gender Female
Race White
Birthplace Russia
Marital Status Married
Relation to Head of House Inmate
Home in 1940 Islip, Suffolk, New York
Map of Home in 1940 Islip, Suffolk, New York
Street Institution Located On Carleton Avenue
Farm Yes
Inferred Residence in 1935 Islip, Suffolk, New York
Residence in 1935 Islip
Resident on farm in 1935 Yes
Citizenship Alien
Sheet Number 5A
Institution Central Islip State Hospital (insane)
Attended School or College No
Hours Worked Week Prior to Census 03

1950 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHN-PQHW-SDRB?view=index&action=view

Name Hannah Gross
Age 46
Birth Date abt 1904
Gender Female
Race White
Birth Place Russia
Marital Status Married
Relation to Head of House Patient
Residence Date 1950
Home in 1950 Islip, Suffolk, New York, USA
Dwelling Number V32
Farm No
Acres Yes
Institution Name Central Islip State Hospital
Institution Type Mental

Regards,
Trish

CLPolish2024

Joined: 12 Nov 2024
Replies: 16
Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:26 pm Post subject:

Wow..this is all amazing to see. It is bringing tears to my eyes... thank you for shedding some light on our family.

I will purchase the wedding certificate soon and post it here.

A religious record - so that would be through the synagogue they attended? Do you guys have any suggestions for where to look for that?

jajan

Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Replies: 104

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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:33 pm Post subject:

Just reading along and found this which might show that Ethel Olesky was nee Garron and possibly Hannah’s sister, which might help clarify the parent’s names? Would need to check the original marriage certificate to verify the correct last name for Ethel’s mother.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QD-5WS

Name Samuel Olesky
Sex Male
Age 31
Birth Year (Estimated) 1885
Birthplace Russia
Marital Status Single
Race White
Father's Name Isaac
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Mollie Cohen
Mother's Sex Female
Spouse's Name Ethel Garron
Spouse's Sex Female
Spouse's Age 20
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1896
Spouse's Birthplace Russia
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Race White
Spouse's Father's Name Nathan
Spouse's Father's Sex Male
Spouse's Mother's Name Gittel Teneberg
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 2 Apr 1916
Event Place Manhattan, New York City, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 8212

Trish
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:59 pm Post subject:

jajan wrote:

Hi Jajan,
I was just getting ready to post the same record. Very Happy

This is interesting. It seems Ethel's mother is living with the family in 1925. The mother is listed as "Rose". Maybe it's a nickname.

Regards,
Trish

Name Ethel Olesky
Gender Female
Color or Race White
Age 28
Birth Date abt 1897
Birth Place Russia
Residence Date 1925
House Number 805
Residence Place New York, Bronx
Relationship Wife
Number of years in US 13
Assembly District 07
Line Number 08
Page number 19
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Samuel Olesky 38 Head
Ethel Olesky 28 Wife
Alice Olesky 6 Daughter
Isabel Olesky 2 Daughter
Rose Garron 65 Mother-in-law

CLPolish2024

Joined: 12 Nov 2024
Replies: 16
Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:08 pm Post subject:

You guys are the best, this is so fascinating! I need to discuss with my mother and will come back with more details.

Nathan was essentially orphaned when Isse passed and Hannah entered the asylum, so we believe he went to go live with the Oleskys. He was rumored to have played violin on the streets of NYC to get a little bit of cash to get by.
Eventually I believe he went to Harvard and that is where he met my grandmother (she went to Radcliff, the female version of Harvard at the time - since men and women couldn't study together?).

I will be back with more details soon hopefully. Thank you again!

Sophia
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 6:24 am Post subject:

Trish wrote:

jajan wrote:

Hi Jajan,
I was just getting ready to post the same record. Very Happy

Hi everyone,

This is so interesting! The records that Jajan and Trish found have changed my mind completely about the surname GARRON. I was so sure that it was an incorrect reading of bad handwriting, when the marriage document used that spelling, but now I see that I was wrong. I looked at the 1920 census for Samuel and Ethel Olesky and their family, and that very helpfully gives the year that Samuel was naturalized, 1911. I should point out that Ethel derived her citizenship from her husband, so it is not helpful to look for Ethel's naturalization document.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M45X-XN9

It also shows that both Samuel and Ethel arrived in 1902, which would have made Ethel quite young when she immigrated. That may suggest that Hannah and Ethel came with their parents, if that helps in the search for a ship manifest. It seems to confirm Lithuania as the birthplace for the sisters. We do now have a question as to whether their mother's surname was Teneberg or Feinberg.

Sophia

P.S. Just to confuse things, Family Search shows a naturalization document for an Ethel Garron, but note that this one was born in 1908 in Riga, Latvia and was naturalized in 1928 (when "our" Ethel Garron was already Ethel Olesky) so it is a different woman. Also, it is showing she had a married surname of Munsat.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6GZ1-HZRR

Trish
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:18 pm Post subject:

Hi Everyone,

I found this record for a possible “Ethel” (Ette) Goron. Look at the father’s name. Does it look like Nochim (not sure of correct spelling)? Can you make out the name of the town? What do you think?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TC-CQQ7-2?view=index&action=view&cc=1368704

Ette is on line #9.

Regards,
Trish
PS: I edited the post and added the correct link for the manifest.

Name Ette Goron
Gender Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality Hebrew
Marital Status Single
Age 17
Birth Date abt 1895
Birth Place Russia
Other Birth Place Reoyn
Last Known Residence Resyn, Russia
Departure Port Antwerp, Belgium
Arrival Date 18 Mar 1912
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Residence Place Russia
Final Destination New York City, New York
Height 4 Feet, 11 Inches
Hair Color Dark
Eye Color Dark
Complexion Fair
Money in Possession $17
Person in Old Country Auchem Goron (Coud this be Nochim?)
Person in Old Country Relationship Father
Person in Old Country Residence Resyn Russia
Person in US Ruwin Goron
Person in US Relationship Brother
Father Auchem Goron
Sibling Ruwin Goron
Ship Name Lapland

Last edited by Trish on Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

Trish
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:42 pm Post subject:

Trish wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I found this record for a possible “Ether” (Ette) Goron. Look at the father’s name. Does it look like Nochim (not sure of correct spelling)? Can you make out the name of the town? What do you think?

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.givenName=etta&q.surname=goron

Regards,
Trish

Name Ette Goron
Gender Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality Hebrew
Marital Status Single
Age 17
Birth Date abt 1895
Birth Place Russia
Other Birth Place Reoyn
Last Known Residence Resyn, Russia
Departure Port Antwerp, Belgium
Arrival Date 18 Mar 1912
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Residence Place Russia
Final Destination New York City, New York
Height 4 Feet, 11 Inches
Hair Color Dark
Eye Color Dark
Complexion Fair
Money in Possession $17
Person in Old Country Auchem Goron (Coud this be Nochim?)
Person in Old Country Relationship Father
Person in Old Country Residence Resyn Russia
Person in US Ruwin Goron
Person in US Relationship Brother
Father Auchem Goron
Sibling Ruwin Goron
Ship Name Lapland

Hi Everyone,

Going by the manifest above for "Ette", I found this manifest which could be the brother that is listed on "Ette's" manifest. What do you think? Can someone read the names of the towns.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JXLF-Q6R

Thanks!
Regards,
Trish

CLPolish2024

Joined: 12 Nov 2024
Replies: 16
Location: United States
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 9:34 am Post subject:

Sorry I disappeared - for some reason I stopped getting email updates about this!

So the story I have been told is that Hannah immigrated from Lithuania when she was about 16, because her parents died, and she was going to go live with family in America (the Oleskys?).

I hope that helps.
Is it still useful for me to purchase the marriage record?

Thank you!

Sophia
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:58 am Post subject:

CLPolish2024 wrote:

Hi C,

I would like to comment on the manifest that Trish found for "Ette Goron." On this manifest, we see Ette on Line 9. On the first page of the manifest, you see she is a 17 year old Jewish woman from Russia but of course that would have included what later became Lithuania. The question is, where is this "Resyn"? Her father's name looks exactly like what you were looking for. We also learn that she was a seamstress. Her destination is her brother on E. 99th Street in New York, as you see on the second page. Both she and the woman on Line 10 have this handwritten note, "Dis to Mr I Bader Rep Heb Aid [illegible]" which I interpret to mean that they were discharged into the care of a Mr. I. Bader, a representative of a Hebrew Aid society of some sort, which could be interesting to explore if you feel like researching it. This seems to have been arranged by their respective brothers, since neither women is on the "Detained Aliens" list, quite lucky for them, because sometimes people were detained for days when the person who was supposed to meet them did not come for them. It is not clear to me whether Etta and the other woman knew each other, it is possible that they were from neighboring villages, who knows, but this Smagon (Smagow?) was in Gubernia Wilenski so perhaps it is worth looking for that place and seeing if there is a "Resyn" nearby. I think what Trish found is absolutely the Ethel Garon/Garron (sister of your Hannah) who married Samuel Olesky.

Further, Trish found a manifest for "Rowar Goran," who is likely the brother of Hannah and Ethel. Notice the traveler on the next line down, Joel Olesky. Isn't that exciting?

Looking at these manifests provides so much more color and information than looking at only the indexed information from them. I cannot promise that the marriage certificate, which you are unsure about ordering a copy of, will provide the same wealth of extras. It's your money. Still, if I knew that there is a document out there for an ancestor of mine, it would be hard for me not to reach for it.

All the best,
Sophia

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