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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Location: Paris, France

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:03 am      Post subject: Index for translated records - shaping the idea
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Larry, Gilberto, Zenon, Dave, Starypolak, All,

I wonder if what we do at PO could not be put into a kind of index, and became useful to other people. Occasionally I noted that on the PO we have seen scans (therefore deciphering and translation) which could complete few lines here and there in Geneteka. However I do not know how to do it.

I noted too that we may need a methodology for some "big dynasties" on PO, where an organized listing is simply necessary to not get lost. I am "tagging" summaries of what I type and translate, but it's a kind of one-woman-tricks.

Last not the least, despite large listings in Geneteka or Metryki, nothing is available for cities or villages in today South-East Poland, Przemysl or Ustrzyki are just a desert, not even listed as such.

Best,
Elzbieta
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Magroski49
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Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:51 pm      Post subject:
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Elzbieta and Zenon,

What about creating a topic in PO named "Index for translated records"? I am thinking in a Excel spreadsheet where we can insert the data from records already translated, and also include a link to the page where the research could see the translation. The spreadsheet would then be sent (or acessed by) Geneteka administrators, who would choose the best way to fit those information into their databases.

We currently have 23 pages in Latin, 58 in Polish and 82 in Russian language. Each volunteer could choose a page to transcribe the data into the spreadsheet. There would have to be a coordinator, in order not to have two people transcribing the same page.

Those helped by PO translators could retribute the kindness by inserting themselves the data in the spreadsheet.

Gilberto



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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2144
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:39 pm      Post subject:
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Gilberto,

That is an excellent suggestion. Perhaps it would be possible to modify the spreadsheet a bit by having separate sheets for each category of record and by adding columns for the parents' names with the maiden name of the mother for births and marriages. Geneteka has columns for this information but only a few parish record indexes have that information entered. The additional information makes the index much more valuable. The indexes for the Parish of Chodecz (Kujawsko-Pomorskie) contain that information for births and marriages and I found it to be very useful when searching for records of relatives.

Good idea, Gilberto.

Dave
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rsowa
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Joined: 09 Nov 2013
Replies: 173
Location: Dundee, Michigan, USA

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:49 pm      Post subject:
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It's all good! It feels like there is an explosion of data happening all over!

Besides the index or spreadsheet idea, one thing that I have found EXTREMELY useful, is the names of Godparents and witnesses to events. Nearly all Polish records seem to include them, but they tend to be ignored in most indexes that are published. I would love to be able to search for those names too.

It was only because a certain surname appeared as a Godparent in several of my Chicago ancestor's baptisms, that I discovered the sibling of my great-great-grandmother! Then, after following up with those names, I discovered an entire branch of the family that settled in Chicago!

I know it is probably an awful lot of data to crunch, but it would sure make it handy.
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Zenon
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1481
Location: Poland

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:55 am      Post subject:
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I love this idea Exclamation

Let’s start with something simple and try to develop it together into something as useful as possible while keeping it simple.

I have tried to gather your ideas and created Google Drive spreadsheet available to everyone for editing here link.

As you can see I created three sheets: Births (link), Marriages (link) and Deaths (link). As an example I also filled in Births with two first records from Russian translations thread.


Now, please share your thoughts about:

1. What do you think about this way of sharing the “Index project”. This way we will eliminate having many different versions of the file on local disk and it will be always available and up-to-date.

2. Although all changes in this file are trackable, do you think it is good idea to keep it open for editing to anyone? (All of you can “test” the file by making changes in this version).

3. If the editing access should be restricted then to who? Volunteers who will want to participate in the project and the project coordinator? Technically this is not a problem, it only requires having google account by the editor/volunteer.

4. Do you have any suggestions about modification of columns, sheets or general organization of the spreadsheet?


If among our members and visitors is anyone experienced in idexing for familysearch.org or for any other organization her or his practical hints and suggestions could prove to be very useful.

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
I noted too that we may need a methodology for some "big dynasties" on PO, where an organized listing is simply necessary to not get lost. I am "tagging" summaries of what I type and translate, but it's a kind of one-woman-tricks.


Elzbieta, could you share with us your methodology? Maybe we could develop it together.

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
Last not the least, despite large listings in Geneteka or Metryki, nothing is available for cities or villages in today South-East Poland, Przemysl or Ustrzyki are just a desert, not even listed as such.


In our PO Research Team there are two great researchers residing in Przemysl. By occasion of conducting research projects in parishes and diocese archives we collect growing number of church records. We haven’t made it available because we are afraid it might cause that the doors in these institutions wouldn’t be open for us any longer. Hopefully in the future, when the approach of some church institutions in south-eastern Poland will change, we will make it available for benefit of all.

Gilberto wrote:
Those helped by PO translators could retribute the kindness by inserting themselves the data in the spreadsheet.


This is a great idea. We could prepare short instruction how to do it.
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Magroski49
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Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:01 am      Post subject: "
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Zenon wrote:


Now, please share your thoughts about:

1. What do you think about this way of sharing the “Index project”. This way we will eliminate having many different versions of the file on local disk and it will be always available and up-to-date.

2. Although all changes in this file are trackable, do you think it is good idea to keep it open for editing to anyone? (All of you can “test” the file by making changes in this version).

3. If the editing access should be restricted then to who? Volunteers who will want to participate in the project and the project coordinator? Technically this is not a problem, it only requires having google account by the editor/volunteer.

4. Do you have any suggestions about modification of columns, sheets or general organization of the spreadsheet?



1. Okay, as far as I can see
2. and 3. If editing by any user may result, by accident, in a total loss of the work done, then I vote for coordinator and volunteers only.
4. I think we could eliminate the columns for the links. The links themselves would be included in surname/name field (I know how to do it in Excel, but not in Google spreasheet). The current columns for scan links and translations links could be used to insert witnesses and godparents names and surnames.

Another question: when this spreadsheet counts hundreds or thousands of names, how will the researcher do his/her search? Is there a "Find it" tool? Does this spreadsheet allow to organize the names or surnames in alphabetical order? Or by place or year?

Gilberto
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:44 am      Post subject:
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Zenon wrote:
I love this idea Exclamation


Zenon, what about wikitree or webtrees?

I understand the important part is import-export between PO TBD format and Geneteka or CVS (therefore Excel).

Whatever solution, may I suggest to start with an exercise of 3 records or so, benchmark it and see if it suits?

Best,
Elzbieta
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may28991



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Replies: 68

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:07 pm      Post subject: I love the idea!!!
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I don't know about anybody else, but this reminds me of Cancer research. There are thousands of initiatives out there and they don't/won't communicate. Some members of Polish Origins and I have asked the Polish Genealogy Society of America (PGSA) to take the lead roll in coordinate all of these different indexing and digitizing initiatives. It has been about six months now, and they are still analyzing whether they should accept this responsibility. Sense I have been working on my family tree (10Years); I can't believe the total number of these separate Polish projects going on. Can you imagine if all these effort where coordinated? The labor, and money that would be put toward doing more faster. If you agree with me please email the PGSA and let them know your opinion. I believe that this in under their charter!

[email protected]

Thanks,
Larry
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PolishLibrarian
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Joined: 28 Aug 2010
Replies: 307

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:40 pm      Post subject:
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From the February 2014 PGSA Notebook: "Since many of our readers (members as well as non-members) are excited by what is happening in Poland and information available via the Internet, our website chair, James Piechorowski has put together a directory of Polish websites containing transcribed or digitized records, many of which are constantly being added to. It includes sites on the national as well as regional level.

Most sites are in Polish and therefore we are recommending that you use Google Chrome, with its automatic translation bars to help you get the most out of each site. A few sites may be familiar to you. And, if you know of other websites/projects that are not included, please contact Jim at [email protected]

This page is a work in process. Consequently, if you go to http://pgsa.org/2014_polish_parish_records/pgsa_projects.php you will see the very beginnings of the directory. That means you will have to check back for the complete listing.

(Please take note of our site's emerging new look!)" ~PL
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Zenon
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1481
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:05 am      Post subject:
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Gilberto wrote:
2. and 3. If editing by any user may result, by accident, in a total loss of the work done, then I vote for coordinator and volunteers only.


I also think it is much better solution. Coordinator would have rights for giving full access to rights of editing the document to volunteers. Coordinator and volunteers could edit and all others could view and add comments to specific parts (words, cells) of the document.

Gilberto wrote:
4. I think we could eliminate the columns for the links. The links themselves would be included in surname/name field (I know how to do it in Excel, but not in Google spreasheet). The current columns for scan links and translations links could be used to insert witnesses and godparents names and surnames.


As far as quickly checked it is not possible to add hyperlink (link to given website or file) in Drive Spreadsheet (however, I may be wrong and not know about such possibility). Even if there would be such possibility it might be not so simple and quick process as it is just pasting link to column (you would have to add more "micro actions" - mouse clicks, to complete one entry). It is especially important when you are adding hundreds of rows with data. We can manipulate width of columns to add more of them. I added witnesses columns to Marriages link and Deaths link.

Gilberto wrote:
Another question: when this spreadsheet counts hundreds or thousands of names, how will the researcher do his/her search? Is there a "Find it" tool? Does this spreadsheet allow to organize the names or surnames in alphabetical order? Or by place or year?


You can always use combination of ctrl+f keys (find). We can also sort alphabetically the whole document by given column, for example town or surname.

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
Zenon, what about wikitree or webtrees?


I have never used wikitree. Some time ago we started tests on webtrees and they were very preliminary tests: http://polishorigins.com/webtrees/ . So I am not too familiar with capabilities offered by any the two tools. Do you think any of them can be used in this specific project?

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
I understand the important part is import-export between PO TBD format and Geneteka or CVS (therefore Excel).


The file can be saved as Excel or CVS (as well as in many other formats).

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
Whatever solution, may I suggest to start with an exercise of 3 records or so, benchmark it and see if it suits?


Sure, I added 2 births: link. If anyone wants to try it the spreadsheet is still open to everyone for editing. If you prefer to restrict editing feature to concrete persons please let me know who of you would like to have the access and the others will have only viewing and adding comments rights.

may28991 wrote:
Sense I have been working on my family tree (10Years); I can't believe the total number of these separate Polish projects going on. Can you imagine if all these effort where coordinated? The labor, and money that would be put toward doing more faster.


I fully agree Larry. We have more and more digitizing projects which is great. In Poland we have szukajwarchiwach.pl geneteka, genbaza, Poznan Project as well as many other local initiatives by regional genealogical sociates as well as private persons. Making this records available from one platform would be an enormous step forward and great facilitation for all researchers. We were trying to do this in our PO Databases Tool but currently because lack of resources (mainly time and people who would be capable and willing to conduct it) we had to suspend it.
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, France

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:24 pm      Post subject: Benchmarking
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Larry, Gilberto, Zenon, Dave, Starypolak, All,

Yesterday and today I translated half a dozen of records, with my tagging system (one-woman-tricks), then put it into Benchmark Excel file (easier to work with it), and adjusted colums. They are all under current page under topic "Polish records translations", that is 59.

I am sure that copying long URLs into Excel or similar will not fly. But analysing how PO backend (i.e. operating system inside) works, I could simplify.

We have 3 main topics: Russian, Polish, Latin - those topics have internal PO numbers, and any subsequent page is just a relative reference with regards to its origin.

All SCANs are stored into well defined directory, therefore it's sufficient to record only jpeg name in Excel-like file.

That's it.

I attach my PObenchmark.xls -- Horror !
The Extension xls is not allowed - I have no choice that make PDF's from it. 7 pages, 2 for B (birth), 2 for M (marriage), 2 for D (death), and 1 page explanation.

Three sheets (B, M, D for Birth, Marriage, Death), and one Explanation.
I am not the best person in explaining things, so please be indulgent, and help to make it better.

Your comments and improvements are welcome!

Best,
Elzbieta



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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:31 pm      Post subject:
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Elzbieta,

I understand the "topic number' and "15 units per page".

"Go to page 1,2,3.....57,58,59, Next" has always been a difficult way for me to find a translation. If I want acess the page 35, I have to go to the page 57 and then click back until I get to page 35. Never figured out if there is a shorter/easier solution for this.

"Knowing the starting point of each topic": didn't understand how one will know where a topic starts.

Calculating system: didn't understand.

The way I see it, the only thing a researcher knows for sure is the surname he/she is looking for. How will he/she know if there is a .jpeg file in PO database, and more, what is the number of that file? Without these information, how the calculation will be done?

Gilberto
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BobK
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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:12 pm      Post subject: Re: Benchmarking
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Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

I attach my PObenchmark.xls -- Horror ! The Extension xls is not allowed -


Can you save your file as CSV .. text ..

If not, rename the CSV to TXT and explain that it needs to be renamed first.

Thanks for all your work!

Bob K.
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:17 pm      Post subject:
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Magroski49 wrote:
Elzbieta,

I understand the "topic number' and "15 units per page".

"Go to page 1,2,3.....57,58,59, Next" has always been a difficult way for me to find a translation. If I want acess the page 35, I have to go to the page 57 and then click back until I get to page 35. Never figured out if there is a shorter/easier solution for this.

"Knowing the starting point of each topic": didn't understand how one will know where a topic starts.



Gilberto, I cannot agree more - therefore I was trying to understand how to get fast to the page 57.

The method is simple:

- we have 3 "starting points" (those numbers show for the first page of each, that was my little understanding of underlying system)
t=1814 Polish records translations
t=335 Russian records translations
t=1759 Latin records translations

- go to 57, means jump over 56; 56*15 ("15 units per page") = 840

- if you want to go to 57 on Polish translations, it's:

http://polishorigins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=840
( in the middle t=1814, and at the end 840, anything else is invariant)

- if you want to go to 57 on Russian translations, it's:
http://polishorigins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=335&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=840
(same method, with t=335)

Of course the above is calculation by hand, but in an Excel you put the formula in a cell, and then it's just click

Quote:

Calculating system: didn't understand.

The way I see it, the only thing a researcher knows for sure is the surname he/she is looking for. How will he/she know if there is a .jpeg file in PO database, and more, what is the number of that file? Without these information, how the calculation will be done?


That is precisely the point, how to do it.

Please go to the Google drive prepared by Zenon. I did replace his initial columns by exactly what I had in my Excel I could not post here (therefore PDF). So now you have it live.

In each category - births, marriages, death - you use one line per record, put there information you have, including original jpeg with record. The last 2 colums are automaticaly calculated "click" to get to (1) original jpeg ; 2) page with translation

The drive is like an Excel, you can sort it by every column, so you can have it by date of birth (or marriage), or name of groom, etc.

Please try Zenon's links in his post:
Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:55 am
I love this idea
==

NB. My example is real from yesterday-today translated records, I copied it to be sure to have it safe.

Best,
Elzbieta
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:21 pm      Post subject: Re: Benchmarking
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BobK wrote:
Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

I attach my PObenchmark.xls -- Horror ! The Extension xls is not allowed -


Can you save your file as CSV .. text ..

If not, rename the CSV to TXT and explain that it needs to be renamed first.

Thanks for all your work!

Bob K.


Bob,

Thank you for positive support! See what I wrote to Gilberto, and please give your opinion.

Best,
Elzbieta
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