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mdhillison



Joined: 11 Feb 2014
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:36 pm      Post subject: The curious case of Helen Z. (or S.)
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Hello! I've been searching for anything about my great-grandmother before her marriage in the US to my great-grandfather.

I've documented all the stuff I've found here on my website, http://www.hillison.com/?p=2904
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Cheri Vanden Berg
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:36 pm      Post subject:
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Wow, you have worked hard to try to find Helena's surname. My first though was kind of leaning towards the marriage record spelling just because that was one of the earlier records, and she was there for it. But of course during this period of time any phonetic (or not) spelling seemed to go on records. I probably don't have to tell you that my search for the Zurawiec surname came up empty. There are some Surawiec passengers coming through Ellis Island, but there are more Surowiec passengers. Also, I checked the Polish surname map, and nothing came up for Surawiec, but there are a bunch of people with the Surowiec surname living in Poland today: http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/surowiec.html
And if you Google Surowiec, you will find people with that surname that live in the U.S.
I think this could be a possibility, but my quick search did not find Helena on a ship manifest yet.
There are two Surowiec researchers on Rafal's surname list, but it's hard to say if their e-mail addresses are current:
Surowiec ---- [email protected] -- Jul/00
Surowiec ---- [email protected] -- Aug/01
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mdhillison



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Post Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:55 pm      Post subject:
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Thanks, I agree in general too - oldest record and she would have had to have given the info. But part of the problem with those marriage records is they are transcribed from old church records - even the marriage record is really 20 years old when it was written down. It's just so bizarre to find nothing and I can't even grasp where the Shorovitz stuff came from.

I'll check into Surowiec and follow up with those guys too if it looks promising at all.

Thanks!
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Cheri Vanden Berg
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:13 pm      Post subject:
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You might want to go to http://www.ivona.com/us/ Pick one of the 5 Polish speakers (or give everyone a turn!) Type in Surowiec, and listen. My ears aren't the greatest, but it kind of sounds like Shorovitz to me. Of course I'm not pretending to KNOW Helena's surname, I just want you to understand why someone else might write down Shorovitz when that is what they remember HEARING. Oh, the church can't give you a copy of the original record?
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mdhillison



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Post Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:22 pm      Post subject:
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The church will not give copies of the original logged records and they will not let me examine them (I offered to go to Pittsburgh).

That's been one of the working theories we've had as well - same S/Z start and same ending. All the Shorovitz/Shore references are later on too, possibly not even seen by her so it could be my Italian great-grandfather trying to spell it the best he thought. There are almost no Shorovitzs either in general. That or that they changed it during naturalization.
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Cheri Vanden Berg
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:11 am      Post subject:
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Sorry to hear that about the church records. It seems like you are doing well without seeing the original. I think you probably figured out the correct birth place for Helen, based on their records. I looked to see if the LDS filmed records for Wieniawa, Lublin, and it comes up in their catalog, but I couldn't get it to show me what they had. Maybe someone else could comment on that, I've never had trouble before.

For what it's worth, I Googled: Surowiec Lublin and I got some hits. Names. It seemed to also give me the surname Zurowiec, even though that spelling didn't show up in that surname map that I mentioned earlier.
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:56 am      Post subject:
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To follow up with Cheri's findings: Surowiec is very popular name http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/surowiec.html

Did you consider that the first letter could be z with a dot, Żurawiec or Żurowiec, the letter which spelling is not far away from "J" in Julie. Without a dot it is Z, but then the spelling differs. When non Polish speaker records phoneticaly a name starting with Ż you may get strange variants. And once strange spelling starts, the online dictionarries may suggest to put "vitz' at the end.

Żurawiec is a plant http://www.atlas-roslin.pl/gatunki/Atrichum_undulatum.htm

20 persons with the name Żurawiec and 16 with Żurowiec show up in today's Poland.

Żurawiec, Lublin Voivodeship - village http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBurawiec,_Lublin_Voivodeship

Żurawce - village in the area called Roztocze http://www.roztoczewita.pl/zurawce

Elzbieta
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:49 am      Post subject:
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Wieniawa records online:

Sw. Jana (katedral) in Lublin (covers Wieniawa)
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1859/0/2.4/82/str/1/1/100#tabSkany
1898 birth indexes on images 87 to 98

Sw. Michala in Lublin (covers up to 1825)

Sw. Pawla in Lublin (covers Wieniawa)
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1860/0/2.4/22/str/1/2/100#tabSkany
1898 birth indexes on images 112 to 116

Gilberto
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Cheri Vanden Berg
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:44 am      Post subject:
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I hope you don't mind a comment or two on what you wrote on your website:
"Update on the AR2 Alien Registration forms. Not a ton of info – no photo. But the last name listed is Shorovitz which is super rare. I think that’s a misspelling again – there is no V in Polish anyway. SIGH. 5-4, Brown hair, green eyes. DOB the same but a new arrival date in the US of April 1909 but no ship. She lists NO parents as living in the US. Did they go back to Poland? Did they die? This was 1941 so she was 43ish. Either is possible."
One other possibility is that her parents never immigrated. I realize that Helena must have been young, but she could have immigrated with someone else. From what I have seen, it is quite common to have multiple birth years in records. My mom's family was never sure what year my grandmother was born. I see that in the 1920 census, Helen was 25, and on the Alien Registration form it says that Helen was born in 1895. That seems likely, given the age at her marriage.
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mdhillison



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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:53 am      Post subject:
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Cheri, I don't mind at all. That's why I wrote it all down and shared it, it always helps to have other people's thoughts. Sometimes you've looked at the same stuff so often you don't see other options. So thanks!

My great-granddad came over at 13 with cousins so you are completely right that it's a possibility. I assumed since she was female and so young she must have been with parents. But I should entertain all scenarios.
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mdhillison



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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 am      Post subject:
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Elzbieta, thanks so much for that. Good stuff to look at.

Gilberto, thanks. I had looked before but since I don't speak Polish, I sort of put it by the wayside. I'll dig into it today, thanks for the location of the index.

What a helpful group, thanks everyone!
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:05 am      Post subject:
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mdhillison wrote:
Elzbieta, thanks so much for that. Good stuff to look at.

Gilberto, thanks. I had looked before but since I don't speak Polish, I sort of put it by the wayside. I'll dig into it today, thanks for the location of the index.

What a helpful group, thanks everyone!


Bad news: the index is in russian.
Good news: since you are not sure of the spelling, look for any Elena, note down the number of the record and go check it.
Most of them have the names written in polish, right after russian. If not, it helps to know that Wojciech starts with a B.

Good hunt!
Gilberto
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mdhillison



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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:14 am      Post subject:
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Thanks, I work a lot with LDS microfilms in Italian and that's basically what I have to do too with them!

Wait, it starts with a B???
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:53 am      Post subject:
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Sorry. I meant that, in the record, her father's name, Wojciech, written in russian language, starts with the letter B.
The attached alphabet may help you identify surnames starting with S or Z.
Gilberto



Alfabeto russo.pdf
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:33 pm      Post subject:
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Gilbero's pdf is priceless, I give you here typed Cyrillic for 3 names

Zurawiec and variants in 1-st and 2-nd position:

зуравиец
жыравиец
журавиец
шуравиец

Helena and variants (I looked up Gilberto's URL to search in Lublin, and noted several in 1-st, and a little less in 2-nd variant. The third is also possible.

елена
гелена
хелена

Wojciech:

войциеч

Bonne chance!
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