Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:50 am
Post subject: Trying to find my Grandfather's Birthplace
Dear friends,
I am trying to find my Grandfather's birthplace. From his daughter's birth certificate and records at Ellis Island. I found the following information:
His daughter's birth certificate indicates that he was from Mankowiczy, Poland. I think he arrived in the USA through Ellis Island on Apr 26, 1907.
First Name: Josef
Last Name: Cieply
Ethnicity: Austria, Galicia, Polish
Last Place of Residence: Cieszanow, Galicia
Date of Arrival: Apr 26, 1907
Age at Arrival: 17y
Gender: M
Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Gera
Port of Departure: Bremen
Manifest Line Number: 0030
But I cannot find Mankowiczy on a map of Poland. Can anyone help me? Thanks.
Sincerely,
Joe
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:01 pm
Post subject:
Joe,
I think it was misspelled. Markowicze. See map attached.
Gilberto
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Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:37 pm
Post subject:
Dear Gilberto,
Thanks for the reply. You make a good suggestion that I had a misspelling.
But could it be Mańkowice? I found this city further north. Your suggestion makes more sense though as it is closer to Cieszanow.
Sincerely,
Joe
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:25 pm
Post subject:
| joecieply wrote: | Dear Gilberto,
Thanks for the reply. You make a good suggestion that I had a misspelling.
But could it be Mańkowice? I found this city further north. Your suggestion makes more sense though as it is closer to Cieszanow.
Sincerely,
Joe |
Joe,
I have found the birth record attached in Tarnogrod/Ksiezpole catholic parish (few miles South of Markowice). The name is either Jozef or Jozefa and the surname looks like the way Cieply would be handwritten in russian.
You may ask for a translating in Russian records translation topic.
Regards,
Gilberto
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Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:08 pm
Post subject:
Dear Gilberto,
Thanks again for your help.
I'm confused though. My grandfather was polish. Why would the birth certificate be written in Russian?
I had difficulty reading the characters in the two images you sent. Which one had the name Josef on it?
Thanks again for your help. god Bless.
Sincerely
Joe
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Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:09 pm
Post subject:
Dear Gilberto,
Thanks again for your help.
I'm confused though. My grandfather was polish. Why would the birth certificate be written in Russian?
I had difficulty reading the characters in the two images you sent. Which one had the name Josef on it?
Thanks again for your help. god Bless.
PS This city is north of Markowice, right?
Sincerely
Joe
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:24 pm
Post subject:
| joecieply wrote: | Dear Gilberto,
Thanks again for your help.
I'm confused though. My grandfather was polish. Why would the birth certificate be written in Russian?
I had difficulty reading the characters in the two images you sent. Which one had the name Josef on it?
Thanks again for your help. god Bless.
PS This city is north of Markowice, right?
Sincerely
Joe |
Joe
This part of Poland, known as Congress/Kingdom of Poland, was ruled by Russia by then, as the result of the three partitions made by the Austro-Hungarian empire, Russia and Prussia. From June 1868 on, it became mandatory that records should be written in russian. However, some records contain the names and surnames in both languages. Or the ondex in both languages. Some priests also wrote the records in Latin (I have my grandfather's birth in those three languages).
The name Jozef appears on the second part of the record. It is about four lines before the bottom and looks like "Jocup".
Markowicze is north of Ksiezpole. Both are north of Tarnogrod (6 miles, as the crow flies)
Regards,
Gilberto
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:16 pm
Post subject:
Joe,
It would be most beneficial to follow Gilberto's suggestion and to ask for a translation of the document he located. The attached map is a detailed map of the powiat in which Markowicze, Ksiezpole and Tarnograd are located. Russian Poland aka The Congress Kingdom of Poland was divided into Gubiernas and Powiats for administrative purposes. If you look at this map you will not see Cieszanow because it was located in the Austrian Partition (Cesarstwo Austryackie/Austrian Empire on the map). It would be to the southeast of Markowicze.
To add a little to what Gilberto wrote about the languages of records from the period----The Russian record is a CIVIL birth record from the Russian Partition. Priests acted as civil registrars in each of the three partitions---In the German Partition (Prov. of Posen) until 1874 and in the Austrian Partition and in the Russian Partition until after WW I. In the Russian Partition the civil records were kept in Polish until 1868 and then in Russian. In the German and Austrian Partitions the civil records were kept in Latin (until 1874 in the German Partition and until after WW I in the Austrian Partition). Gilberto mentioned having his grandfather's birth record in Latin---that record is the religious record of birth and baptism. It can be confusing that in the Russian Partition the same priest signs both the civil registration and the religious record but the basic explanation is that in one instance he was keeping and signing a civil record acting on behalf of the civil government and in the second instance (the Latin record) he was acting as a religious official (parish priest) and was keeping a sacramental record. In that capacity he would almost always have written the record in Latin. Keep in mind that until the late 1960s in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church the rituals of the Mass and of the Sacraments were celebrated in Latin. (The only part of the Mass which was not in Latin was the sermon.) Although Catholic Church law did not specify that the records were to kept in Latin, more often than not they were in Latin. It is probable that both the civil record of your grandfather's birth (the one Gilberto found) and the religious record of your grandfather's birth and baptism both exist but most likely the only one available online is the civil record.
A final observation---the village of your grandfather's birth would have made him an ethnic Pole who was a subject of the Czar of Russia by birth. But if he (and perhaps his parents) left the Russian Partition and resided in Cieszanow he would have been an ethnic Pole who was a subject of the Austrian Emperor because of his last place of residence in Europe. All this would fit very well with the information contained in the ship's manifest.
Hope you are successful in your quest.
Dave
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Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:18 am
Post subject:
Dear Dave and Gilberto,
Thank you both for your assistance. You are truly experts in helping me understand this. I do have a few questions though:
1. Gilberto, can you tell me where you found my grandfather's birth certificate? What was the name of the parish. Perhaps I can all them and ask for a translation.
2. Gilberto, does this indicate the year he was born? I think he was born in either 1889 or 1890.
3. Dave, if he came to the US in 1907 could he have been living in Cieszanow if it did not exist yet? As you said, it is not on the map.
Thank you both for your help.
God Bless.
Joe
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:35 pm
Post subject:
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:06 pm
Post subject:
Joe,
I didn't mean to give you the impression that Cieszanow was not on the map I posted because it did not exist. What I was saying was that the posted map was of the area of Russian Poland (The Congress Kingdom of Poland) where the villages of Ksiezpol and Markowicze were located and since Cieszanow was located in the Austrian Partition it was not on that particular map. The border between the Russian and the Austrian Partitions ran through the area south of Ksiezpol and Markowicze and north of Cieszanow. Since Cieszanow was in Austrian territory it appears on maps of the Austrian Partition but not on a map of the Russian Partition. The Austrian Partition was called Galicia and the map attached to this post is of that territory and so Cieszanow appears on that map. To coordinate the two maps if you look at the top of the Austrian Partition (Galicia) map just above the letter F you will see Tomogrod (in the Russian Partition) which lies just to the north of the border between the two partitions. Cieszanow lies just to the south of the border between the two partitions in Austrian controlled territory. Again using the letter F as a point of reference, Cieszanow lies below and a little to the right of the letter F.
To answer your question...Your grandfather must have lived in Cieszanow just before he left Europe as he stated on the ship's manifest. The entry about Cieszanow in the Geographical Dictionary of the Kingdom of Poland (Slownik geograficzny) is found in Volume I on pages 693, 694 and 695 (Tom I, strona 693, 694 & 695) and one thing mentioned in the description is that the masonry parish church which was in use at the time your grandfather left for America dates back to the 1600s. So the long and short of it is that Cieszanow certainly existed at the time your grandfather left Poland.
Regarding a translation of the document Gilberto found for you, I would not recommend asking the parish priest to translate it. I believe that what Gilberto meant when he made the suggestion about having the document translated was that you should post it in the Russian Records Translation section of the Polish Origins forum. Ryszard/Staripolak graciously has been translating Russian language documents for members of Polish Origins and I believe Gilberto was suggesting that you seek his help in translating the document. If you notice on the Polish Origins homepage in the sidebar on the right side of the page three language sections are listed where anyone can request documents to be translated from Russian or from Polish or from Latin. If you follow the directions for posting a request for a translation, your request will be fulfilled and the document will be translated.
I hope this clarifies things a bit.
Dave
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Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:31 am
Post subject:
Dave,
Thanks for the clarification and guidance in getting these documents from Gilberto translated.
Joe
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Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re Grandfather
Joe, did your grandfather live in Chicago? Mine was also from that town and born in 1890
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Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:18 pm
Post subject: Still searching
I am still searching for any information on the following names:Jablonski/Yablonski,Skerski or Skerska,Yezilski or Jezilski. The name of place of origin was Rumnki/Trabin parish for Jablonski.Beleive others are from or near village of Rumnki.Also searching for a village or town named Chromonkow,Russia and how far fromTrabin-Rumnki .It is listed as near Plock on ship passenger list.
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