Forum | PolishOrigins :: View topic - help translating and finding a Prussian Village

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mcdonald0517
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: help translating and finding a Prussian Village

Hello all,

I recently had a marriage record for g-grandmother, Paulina Kryger, translated in the Russian forum, and the translator had some question marks around the translation for Paulina Kryger's birth village. The attempted translation was "Frankienarzy (?) Prussia). I am having a hard time locating this village as translated and could really use some help. I am attaching the lines from the record where the village appears. I think I put the arrow next to the village name in the attachment.

Can anyone: 1) confirm the translation and 2) offer any help in locating this village?

Many thanks,
Cynthia

Kryger village name.jpg

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Village name for Paulina Kryger

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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: Re: help translating and finding a Prussian Village

mcdonald0517 wrote:

Cynthia,

Prussia's villages are a big challenge. When working on your case, I found very interesting documents with Prussia's maps over time here http://pruskihoryzont.blogspot.fr/2013/03/prusy-w-swietle-podziaow.html

It's good you provided the village name in Cyrillic. It starts with "Fra", but one can decipher the end as "orfu", which is with Polish/Slavic declension, in nominative "orf". "Fra"..."orf".

Then I looked up the old geography book,
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_II/405
and
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_II/406
where there is a number of "Fra"..."orf".

One of them is Frauendorf, indicated as "powiat Lidzbark" (Lidzbark Warmiński)
Googling, searching, finding where Frauendorf could be today. In the URL below there is an old map, it's not far away of Guttstadt, which is in Polish "Dobre Miasto", therefore not far away of Lidzbark.
http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Frauendorf_%28Ostpreu%C3%9Fen%29

Franciszkowo is here:
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_II/401
Actually there is a number of Franciszkowo, one with German name Franzdorf - which I take as indication that German version of a name Franciszek-something was not impossible.

I know that your records are also from Wieczfnia Kościelna, as well villages Uniszki Zawadzkie, Bońkowo Kościelne, or Bębnowo.
Continuing with Franciszkowo, there is one near Żuromin - Żuromin was in Prussia.

In summary: I do not know, more information needed.
It could be Frauendorf in Lidzbark area, near Dobre Miasto (old Guttstadt).
It could be another place starting with Fra, Franciszkowo South of Żuromin is a good candidate, because close to "your" villages.

Best,
Elzbieta

mcdonald0517
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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject:

Thank you very much, Elzbieta! I will look carefully at the information you provided. The town near my family villages sounds promising...

I will also see if I can find another document for Paulina Kryger (or even a sibling) that may have her birth village listed for comparison.

With gratitude,
Cynthia

mcdonald0517
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: parish for Fraciszkowo Masovian Voivodeship

Hi Elzbieta,

I am following up on my original request in this thread. I agree with you Elzbieta, that is seems likely that Franciszkowo which is just south of Zuromin and fairly close to Bebnowo (birth place of my G-grandfather) is a good place to begin looking for my G-grandmother, Paulina Krygier's, birth record. However, I am having some challenges finding the parish for Franciszkowo in order to locate the records. Can you or anyone else help me locate the parish?

FYI, LDS has 10 different films for Zuromin (Zuromin Warsawa, Zuromin Lutocin, Z-Sarnowo, Z-Zgliczyn, Z-Zielona, Z-Zielun, Z-Biezun, Z-Chamsk, Z-Kuczbork, and Z-Lubowidz). I ordered the films for Chamsk which seemed closest to Franciszkowo, but found no Krygier records. I also ordered Zuromin Warsawa, but found no Krygier records.

I would greatly appreciate any help in narrowing my search.

Sincerely,
Cynthia

Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:25 am Post subject: Re: parish for Fraciszkowo Masovian Voivodeship

mcdonald0517 wrote:

Cynthia,

From parish perspective, Franciszkowo belongs to Chamsk, so it is correct (unless you search records after 1930).

The National Archives indicate availability (Pradziad) for "Chamsk, community Żuromin" for 1826-1907
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/search?q=Zuromin&rpp=15&order=&page=2

The Polish wiki
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamsk
indicates that the parish in Chamsk was covering a couple of villages:

After 1385: () do parafii w Chamsku następujących miejscowości: Dębsk, Karniszyn, Łążek, Myślin, Kobyla Łąka, Olszewo, Franciszkowo i Poniatowo
...
W 1797 roku proboszcz ks. Antoni Fiedorowicz przeniósł swą siedzibę z Chamska do Poniatowa, formalnie pozostawiając parafię w dotychczasowym miejscu. Dopiero w 1930 r. Chamsk stracił status parafii i stał się filią parafii w Poniatowie
// In 1797, the Pastor Antoni Fiedorowicz moved his seat from Chamsk to Poniatowo, but formaly left the parish in Chamsk. Only in 1930 Chamsk lost its status of parish

Looking inside for birth 1826-1907
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/pradziad/31960?q=Zuromin&wynik=24&rpp=15&page=2,
they state:
Dates: 1826-1907
Microfilms: 1826-1859
Archiwum Państwowe m.st. Warszawy Oddział w Mławie

I understand it that the records 1826-1907 do exist, and are partly in Polish Archives on microfilms 1826-1859.

I do not have any practical experience for asking Polish Archives for search - did you ask Mława if they have records for 1826-1907, and if they could search Paulina Kruger?

I do not know either if there is any index about microfilms held by LSD and Polish Archives.

Best,
Elzbieta

Magroski49
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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:20 am Post subject:

Cynthia and Elzbieta,

Chamsk on line from 1826 to 1911:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/AP-Mlawa/Chamsk/

Gilberto

Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:45 am Post subject:

Magroski49 wrote:

Cynthia and Elzbieta,

Chamsk on line from 1826 to 1911:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/AP-Mlawa/Chamsk/

Gilberto

Cynthia,

I just want to tell you that yesterday I looked up in Gilberto's link (apparently only Roman Catholic records) all indexes of birth between 1845 and 1860, and did not find any name with Krygier in birth's.
Do you have any estimate of her year of birth?

Best,
Elzbieta

mcdonald0517
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject:

Hello Elzbieta,

Thank you so much for taking this a step further. I did the same thing yesterday and reached the same conclusion: no Krygiers in the Chamsk books.

Paulina was 19 years old when she married my g-grandfather, Jan Lelinski, in 1871 according to the parish marriage record in Uniszki Zawadskie. So, that would place her birth around 1852. The marriage record is my source for her birth village which I provided earlier in this thread for help translating.

Here is another interesting piece of information: according to her marriage record, her parents resided in Uniszki Zawadskie at the time of her marriage. So, I searched the Wiefcnia parish books for Krygier death records thinking I might find her parents - but I didn't. Instead, I found her brother Gottlieb's death record as well as two other Krygier infant deaths that I cannot place in my family tree - don't know who they are. Unfortunately, Gottlieb's death record did not have the name of his birth village. I also found Gottlieb's marriage record, but it did not have the name of his birth village. It just says "Prusiech". However, Gottlieb's wife was from Radzanowo which is near Zuromin and Franciskowo.

Don't know if any of this helps. There is one more avenue for me to try. In looking at the Krygier infant death records, one of the parents was Bogumil Krygier. Perhaps if I search for Bogumil's marriage record, I might get his birth village as another data point. He may be Paulina's relative - brother perhaps?

That's it for now. It is very disappointing. I thought for sure I would find her in the Chamsk books....
Ah well, back to the detective work...
Thanks again for your help.
Kind regards, Cynthia.

Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:50 am Post subject:

mcdonald0517 wrote:

There is one more avenue for me to try. In looking at the Krygier infant death records, one of the parents was Bogumil Krygier. Perhaps if I search for Bogumil's marriage record, I might get his birth village as another data point. He may be Paulina's relative - brother perhaps?

Cynthia,

Bogumil is a Polish version of the first name Gottlieb. It is very possible that it is the same person.
I have already seen here on PO a Gottlieb-Bogumił case (or variant of Bogumił when Cyrillic version).
Etymologicaly it's the same meaning:
Gott lieb = God loves
Bóg miłuje = God loves

The German names, hard to spell, and imposibles to make declensions with, were offten polonized.

Looking forward to see all Bogumil Krygier records.

Best,
Elzbieta
==

mcdonald0517
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:40 pm Post subject:

Hi Elzbieta,
Thank you for clarifying this name confusion. Your comments are perfect timing because I had just been wondering if Gottlieb and Bogumil were the same person. Although the infant death record and the marriage had different first names for the father (Gottlieb and Bogumil) the mothers name was the same. That made me suspect it could be the same person. I was going to inquire about it today, but you beat me to it with your post!
Thank you for your help. I will post whatever I find on the Krygier family in hopes of locating my g-grandmother.

Smile

Best regards, Cynthia

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