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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:17 pm      Post subject: Crazy surname chase - Petraszczuk
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I am tracing out my grandfather's information. His naturalization index card and his labor permit card have his name as Ludwik Petraszczuk with it crossed out and changed to Ludwik Petrowski on both documents. I have been unable to find ship records with that name on them. I found the 1920 Census which has his name as Ludwick Petroski, the 1930 census had his name as Louise Petrowski and the 1940 census as Ludwig Petrowski (that is the name I knew him by). He severally places his place of birth first in Russia and then in Poland. All records seem to point that he declared himself Polish by "race" and as time went by born in Poland instead of Russia. I could find no records of the name Petraszczuk anywhere in Poland. Any clues appreciated.

P.S. An kind acquaintance helping me on my search journey was able to find a Marian Petraszczuk from the same area my grandfather lived in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania who changed her name to Marian Pietrowski. It seems phonetic spelling was the norm in past times.
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:32 pm      Post subject: Re: Crazy surname chase - Petraszczuk
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singingfalls wrote:
I am tracing out my grandfather's information. His naturalization index card and his labor permit card have his name as Ludwik Petraszczuk with it crossed out and changed to Ludwik Petrowski on both documents. I have been unable to find ship records with that name on them. I found the 1920 Census which has his name as Ludwick Petroski, the 1930 census had his name as Louise Petrowski and the 1940 census as Ludwig Petrowski (that is the name I knew him by). He severally places his place of birth first in Russia and then in Poland. All records seem to point that he declared himself Polish by "race" and as time went by born in Poland instead of Russia. I could find no records of the name Petraszczuk anywhere in Poland. Any clues appreciated.

P.S. An kind acquaintance helping me on my search journey was able to find a Marian Petraszczuk from the same area my grandfather lived in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania who changed her name to Marian Pietrowski. It seems phonetic spelling was the norm in past times.


Hi,

His draft card states his bithplace was Hznabusna. Misspelled I think, but no idea what it could be. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11760-169910-62?cc=1861144

Gilberto
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:47 pm      Post subject:
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Yes, I did a search for a place with that name but without success. I am currently waiting for information with regard to his naturalization papers in the hope that it will be more informative. I also noticed that quite a few Petraszczuk surnames are from "Austria".
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:28 pm      Post subject: Re: Crazy surname chase - Petraszczuk
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singingfalls wrote:
I am tracing out my grandfather's information. His naturalization index card and his labor permit card have his name as Ludwik Petraszczuk with it crossed out and changed to Ludwik Petrowski on both documents. I have been unable to find ship records with that name on them. I found the 1920 Census which has his name as Ludwick Petroski, the 1930 census had his name as Louise Petrowski and the 1940 census as Ludwig Petrowski (that is the name I knew him by). He severally places his place of birth first in Russia and then in Poland. All records seem to point that he declared himself Polish by "race" and as time went by born in Poland instead of Russia. I could find no records of the name Petraszczuk anywhere in Poland. Any clues appreciated.

P.S. An kind acquaintance helping me on my search journey was able to find a Marian Petraszczuk from the same area my grandfather lived in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania who changed her name to Marian Pietrowski. It seems phonetic spelling was the norm in past times.


Hi,

I believe the explanation for the first name is easy.
First name:
Ludwik – Polish
Ludwig – German
Louis – French or English
Louie – current American English
Luis – Spanish, Portuguese
All the above is the same.
In Poland, for centuries, we have been using only canonical version of first name, therefore all equivalences were straightforward.
But the immigrants could not always write, and were not bilingual to explain things. Therefore depending on scribe's ears and his mother tongue, some variations could be recorded and last outside of Poland.
No matter what written in the US Census, on the immigration card, travel documents from XIX or beginning XX century – your grandfather's first name is Ludwik. Anything else is typo.
In Poland the canonical form could be (almost) always recovered, but that capability was lost abroad.

Concerning family name, two cases:
1.
Petrowski or Petroski - the END is a matter of orthography, when –"wski "is correct in Polish (etymology), I am inclined to think is must be "wski". Please note that it is impossible to spell "wski" outside of Slavic countries, so some transformations did happen to simplify
Distribution in today Poland:
https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Petrowski - 22 cases
Both above numbers looks like orphans, if it were Polish names we should see thousands cases.
A better Polish language version of the above names should have "i" to make "e" softer, Pietrowski, Pietroski.
And indeed
https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Pietrowski - 1078 cases
https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Pietroski - 2 cases

Let's have a look on Cyrillic and Latin versions together
Петровски - Petrowski
Петроски – Petroski
The Cyrillic "е" spells like "ie" in Polish, soft "e", but the transliteration to Polish Latin is "e", same letter.
In other words if the original name was recorded in Cyrillic [partitions of Poland, and civil vital records in Cyrillic only for half century], that explains why "i" is missing.

The very Polish version of that name is Piotrowski:
https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Piotrowski - almost 30000 cases
and 4 orthography orphans, Piotroski
https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Piotroski - 4 cases
The etymology of Piotrowski is from "Piotr", Peter. The name means "belonging to Piotr", like son of Piotr, or house of Piotr.

2.
Petraszczuk, in Cyrillic and Latin:
Петращук - Petraszczuk
The etymology of Russian/Ukrainian names ending with –uk, is "belonging to".
Nobody in Poland with the name Petraszczuk. It does not sound Polish, but it does sound Ukrainian or Russian.
It does exist with slightly Polonized end, -yk:
https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Pietraszczyk - 198 cases
That number looks like orphan too in Polish, not enough cases.


Coming back to your grandfather - he knew he was Polish, and you shall trust him. He was from the Russian partition of Poland, but that does not mean anything.
For almost 50 years the administrative language of the area of former Polish Kingdom was Russian, just imagine that for 2 generations you are obliged to use foreign language, unknown letters, no matter you are literate in Polish or not, you became illiterate in Cyrillic. And those administrative foreign scribes are changing even your own name.

Your grandfather had reasons to correct his name from Petraszczuk to Petrowski.

Best,
Elzbieta
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:39 pm      Post subject:
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Dear Elzbieta,

Thank you for your careful analysis of the issues facing the plethora of names used in the records regarding my grandfather. I will most certainly copy and save what you have written. Also, I will be sure to let you and the others assisting me know everything I find for both yours and my edification. Dobzje!

Stan

P.S. And by the way MY baptismal papers say the name Stanislaus Piotrowski so the priest obviously caught the connection. That seems to validate your explanation.
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Beatta



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Post Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:50 pm      Post subject:
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http://www.kami.net.pl/kresy - Husne Wyżne ?
Beatta
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:09 pm      Post subject:
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Beatta wrote:
http://www.kami.net.pl/kresy - Husne Wyżne ?
Beatta


Thank you. Even I can see the possibilities of that. Very interesting.

P.S. Edit: There is a place called Wyżne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wy%C5%BCne not far from where my grandmother is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%C3%B3wka,_Podkarpackie_Voivodeship. I wonder?
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Henryk
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:00 pm      Post subject: Re: Crazy surname chase - Petraszczuk
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[quote="Elzbieta Porteneuve
Petrowski or Petroski - the END is a matter of orthography, when –"wski "is correct in Polish (etymology), I am inclined to think is must be "wski". Please note that it is impossible to spell "wski" outside of Slavic countries, so some transformations did happen to simplify

Both above numbers looks like orphans, if it were Polish names we should see thousands cases.

https://nazwiska-polskie.pl/Pietraszczyk - 198 cases
That number looks like orphan too in Polish, not enough cases. [/quote]

Why is it impossible for the spelling "wski" to be used in non-Slavic countries? From my experience, in North America the change to oski from owski is not common.

Why cannot a Polish name have less than 1000 holders in present day Poland? If you look at the first usage date of surnames with only a few hundreds of holders, you will find they go back to the 13th and 14th century.

One reason for reduced number of holders of certain surnames is that many males emigrated, leaving women behind, with their surnames being lost on their marriages An example, amongst my relatives, three brothers emigrated. taking their surname out of Poland, and leaving their sisters in Poland, losing the surname at marriage.
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:57 pm      Post subject:
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Of interest. I had previously posted that there was a Marian Petraszczuk in the vicinity. My assumption was that this was a female name. It is not. This could very well be my great uncle who we called Marianka. This individual changed his name also from Petraszczuk to Pietrowski.
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:14 pm      Post subject:
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singingfalls wrote:
Of interest. I had previously posted that there was a Marian Petraszczuk in the vicinity. My assumption was that this was a female name. It is not. This could very well be my great uncle who we called Marianka. This individual changed his name also from Petraszczuk to Pietrowski.


https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-25016-88741-72
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:57 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you Gilberto. I have this on my records.
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PolishLibrarian
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:53 pm      Post subject: Re: Crazy surname chase - Petraszczuk
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Henryk wrote:

Why cannot a Polish name have less than 1000 holders in present day Poland? If you look at the first usage date of surnames with only a few hundreds of holders, you will find they go back to the 13th and 14th century.

One reason for reduced number of holders of certain surnames is that many males emigrated, leaving women behind, with their surnames being lost on their marriages An example, amongst my relatives, three brothers emigrated. taking their surname out of Poland, and leaving their sisters in Poland, losing the surname at marriage.

I agree with Henryk. My grandfather's surname (all 13 letters and ending in “iewicz”) in Moikrewni shows only 13 people, all in Nowy Targ which is where my grandfather came from in 1909. Our surname was shortened here in the U.S. (dropped the “iewicz”) and that shortened surname in Moikrewni shows only 27 people – 8 In Nowy Targ, 8 in Zakopane, 8 in Dębica, and 3 in Częstochowa. I have seen baptismal records in Nowy Targ for my grandfather & his 9 siblings, and their father's surname was listed with the both with and without the “iewicz” in those records between 1870 and 1889. In our family we have lost the name due to lack of sons having sons, and in my great uncle's family there are only 3 great grandson's with the surname. Apparently there not were lots of sons passing the name along in Poland either.

My grandmother's surname has only 471 holders in Moikrewni. Once again I have seen the baptismal records at the church for my grandmother and her 9 siblings. No question the name is correct. ~PL
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PolishLibrarian
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:57 pm      Post subject:
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singingfalls wrote:
Of interest. I had previously posted that there was a Marian Petraszczuk in the vicinity. My assumption was that this was a female name. It is not. This could very well be my great uncle who we called Marianka. This individual changed his name also from Petraszczuk to Pietrowski.


Another source for surnames and their locations in the 19th century. http://www.ipgs.us/iwonad/surnames/namesa.html

Relating to this particular thread, there is no Petraszczuk, but there is a Petruszczak linked to the area of Balice, Mosaic - Galicia (not Russian partition).
There is Petraszek linked to Zagurow (now Zagorow), Konin – Russia.
A Petruczuk linked to Zerczyce, Drohiczyn - Russia – 1798-1820
No Petrowski.
Seven locations in the Russian Partition for Pietrowski's:
Augustow - Russia – Augustow county notary records, 1808-1830
Beszowa - Russia – 1900-1910
Dabie, Konin - Russia – Roman Catholic, 1810-1880
Gidle - Russia – 1790-1880
Merecz (Merkine) - Russia (now Lithuania)
Niemojuny, Troki - Russia (now Lithuania)
Rajsk, Bialystok - Russia
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:32 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you one and all for your interest and contributions. Quite the learning curve. I have forgotten most of the Polish I once knew and it certainly is a handicap.

I just received notice from NARA (Philadelphia) that they have found my grandfather's naturalization records. Surely that will give me a clue of some kind regarding his name when he immigrated and perhaps where he was born and raised. I still have not been able to find a ship's manifest with his name on it under any of the proffered names.
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PolishLibrarian
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:42 pm      Post subject:
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Stan~ Hopefully the NARA documents will clear things up.

There is one family tree on Ancestry with the person Ilia Alexsander and 3 variations on his surname Petraschuk Petraszczuk Petroschuk, born 1895, died 1971. Supposedly from the Ukraine or Bukowina Romania, but no supporting documentation. Married to Mary Irene Nyckyforuk and died in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I just thought the variation on the spelling of the surname were interesting and that they are linked to the Ukraine area.

There are other Petraszczuk's indexed in Ancestry (Detroit border crossings). George who came from Horodenka Galicia (now in the Ukraine), had a brother Mike in Ontario and a brother Nick in Detroit. George arrived in Quebec in 1912. There's a Wasyl who went from Detroit to Canada in 1951 and he immigrated to New York in 1950, was born in Poland in 1913. There's a Jaroslav P. born in 1922 in the Ukraine, crossing the border in 1952. Could any of these be related?

There's an immigration record for Marian Petrszczuk that says he was born in 1894 in Chrabusno (could this be another phonetic spelling of Ludwik's listed birth town of Hznabusna) Russia (of course Marian's town spelling doesn't show up in a search either). One place on document says name changed to Piotrowski and the other says Pietrowski.

Take a look at this link to a thread http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/pageload.cgi?horoszowa::ukraine::6192.html that includes the surname Petraszcsuk and the town of Horoszova now in Ukraine but once part of Poland, also note Follow-ups links. Found a Maria Petraszczuk Ruthenian from this town arriving in New York in 1907, leaving a father Mikolej in Horoszowa.

Just offering up some other options for looking for clues or possibilities. Good luck. ~PL
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