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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:18 pm      Post subject:
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PL, Thanks again. Please tell me which immigration record site you got this info from. Do you have a URL? I would be much obliged.
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:47 pm      Post subject:
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Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Austria-wow, what history this is. I am now even more curious to see what my DNA tests will show. I am beginning to think it could be more complicated than I initially thought. But it seems that all this mix up over time diversifies the genetics considerably. Only time and effort will tell. It seems that the Poles and the Ukrainians are similar but for the dominating Church sect. I find it very peculiar that Dzjadek always used Polish for Ethnicity and Russian for nationality and not a peep about the Ukraine. Yet there is a high percentage of Petraszczuk name sakes in Galicia with a smattering in the Ukraine. Geography, Language, Ethnicity, Religion and Politics can make for an obscure mix. Now I am curious to know what cultural customs helped define what I am by bringing to light how these various elements intermarried.
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PolishLibrarian
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:11 pm      Post subject:
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The immigration record for Marian is on Ancestry. If you want a copy, I can probably attach it here. I clipped out the part of the manifest for the Ruthenian Maria Petraszczuk line 28. On p. 1 nearest relative left behind is her father (the ditto mark between the two Horoszowa words refers to the word father in the record above hers). She was going to a cousin in Pittsfield, Mass. The last column on p. 2 says she was born in Horoszowa).

I also used the link Beatta gave you for the map for Huza Wyżna to look for Horoszowa and Horodenka. It turns out Horodenka is the larger city on the east border of Woj. Stanislawowskie and Huza Wyżna is a village directly west on the west border of Woj. Stanislawowskie and then Horoszowa is a village just a short distance east of Horodenka across the border in a different Woj. Again my point being that surname shows up in three locations within a very small geographic area. These would be Ruthenians who came from here, so it may not be the right Petraszczuks.

One can hope a birth town will be named on the NARA record and perhaps with a spelling that can be found on a map. ~PL



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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:45 pm      Post subject:
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Yes I have been cruising maps also...and saving them on my computer Wink

I'm pinning a lot on those naturalization papers. My next stop would be SS#.

I noticed on familysearch.org many Petraszczuk surnames in Slovakia in what was at one time Galicia.

This tidbit helped some to clarify where Husne Wyżne would be today.

"Husne Wyżne (Borynia), Galizien, Austria; later Husne Wyżne (Turka), Lwow, Poland; now Verkhnie Husyne (known as Husne Vyzhnie until 1946), Turka, L′viv, Ukraine."

Beautiful country! Very much like the area I live in now. Seems like they very much would like to be a part of Poland there. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&prev=search&sl=pl&u=http://www.polskawschod.zafriko.pl/kat/3_wsie/husne_wyzne&sandbox=0&usg=ALkJrhjujYWrfF0iaNC6NDwOvpV8kXyMSw
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:27 am      Post subject: Re: Crazy surname chase - Petraszczuk
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Henryk,
All,

My contribution was about variants of a specific name, not a general case!

It is obviously true that there are names with few occurencies.

Best,
Elzbieta
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:33 am      Post subject: Re: Crazy surname chase - Petraszczuk
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Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:
Henryk,
All,

My contribution was about variants of a specific name, not a general case!

It is obviously true that there are names with few occurrences.

Best,
Elzbieta


Yes, Elzbieta, that is how I understood your message and didn't take it otherwise. It is also obvious to me through my grandfather's paperwork that all of the nuances of language associated with the USA being the "melting pot" of the nations is brought to bear on these matters. For all the days of my youth I do not remember my grandfather ever speaking the English language. My grandmother on the other hand was very fluent in English. Plus there is the nuance of settling into a new nation and finding ones new self identity. Petrowski is very easy to pronounce in English. It is made up of three English words; Pet, Row, and Ski. No one but those who are Slavic and nostalgic in this country pronounce my name phonetically as "Stanislaus Janek Piotrovski" or Stashu, etc. Normally it is "Pet Row Ski" or "Pet Raw Ski". On the other hand, hardly anyone I know besides 2nd or 3rd generation Pols, Russians, Czechs or Slavs could even come close to pronouncing Petraszczuk simply by looking at the spelling. New comers to the "States" were very focused on adaptation in the new culture. They held many traditions from the old Country and often settled in loose ethnic neighborhoods. My neighborhood was Polish and Irish with Polish and Irish Catholic churches one block away from each other. But even the next generation lost most of those traditions. Often the subtleties of language where the first thing to go. They went by the wayside and gave way to slang. Even in Polish parochial school, though I had to say my prayers in English, Latin and Polish every morning, there was generally disregard by the youth of the traditions of Orthodoxy. They were viewed as mini-cultures in a fast moving world. Some held on but only few. The traditional culture was rich but the new method was to hold onto that which seemed expedient in the present. Actually, I was surprised to see that there were any "Petrowski" surnames in Poland for all of the above reasons. My guess is that they do not even sound the same when pronounced there and here.

_________________
Kyć - Adamówka
Wlaź - Lucków Górny
Petraszczuk - Khrabuzna, Ukraine
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:44 am      Post subject:
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Singing et all
Chrabusna (also Krzabusna): Zloczow area:
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=4w1PAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT53&lpg=PT53&dq=chrabusna&source=bl&ots=dnxp-cMTGi&sig=_0_dv8r8zrN316YylPB8ZFDQ-N4&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ei=UVOtVMioCMWYNqaygLgH&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=chrabusna&f=false

In rayon Sboriw (Ternopil)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajon_Sboriw

SGKP:
vol. I - Chrabuzna = Hrabuzna
vol. 3 - Hrabuzna = przys. Urlowa (the first map image)
vol. 15-1 - Chrabuzna = Chrobuzna (the second map image)

Gilberto



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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:33 pm      Post subject:
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Ding! Ding! Ding! Gilberto, you win the prize for the day for sure! I just received Dzjadek's naturalization papers and it said he was from Chraburna, Russia. I googled that name and no such place exists. I came here to post the papers and low and behold you were light years ahead of me! Thank you for this critical piece of information. It seems very likely he was born in the Ukraine but do many Ukrainians claim to be ethnic Poles? He certainly did. But are we 100% sure that is the place? All comments welcome.

But now regarding his name. We called Maryon Piotrowski our uncle but was he? Please see attached for reference.



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Kyć - Adamówka
Wlaź - Lucków Górny
Petraszczuk - Khrabuzna, Ukraine
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:17 pm      Post subject:
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singingfalls wrote:
Ding! Ding! Ding! Gilberto, you win the prize for the day for sure! I just received Dzjadek's naturalization papers and it said he was from Chraburna, Russia. I googled that name and no such place exists. I came here to post the papers and low and behold you were light years ahead of me! Thank you for this critical piece of information. It seems very likely he was born in the Ukraine but do many Ukrainians claim to be ethnic Poles? He certainly did. But are we 100% sure that is the place? All comments welcome.

But now regarding his name. We called Maryon Piotrowski our uncle but was he? Please see attached for reference.


Gilberto made a great job, providing you very old Polish Military Maps, written in Polish.
Please have a look on this wiki, including the map with Curzon line, with borders change after WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland
Your Dziadek was born in 1896, that means on territories occupied by empires: Russia, Austria, and Prussia. Poland became independent after WWI, when your grandfather was already in the US.

Passeport's history is worth to be read, and especially in the XIX century, up to the end of WWI, it put things in perspective, very different of today
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport

Apparently your Dziadek was from territories in today Ukraine, east of Lwow. Part of my own family lived in Lwow area, trains were running from Lwow (Lwow = Lemberk, other name of Lwow) through Krakow to Vienna (Austria), and population living there were of different nations and religions.
That is the reason why I wrote that if your Dziadek told you he was Polish, you shall trust him.

Re: Marian
The attached "Declaration of Intention" gives 6 names of children:
Stanley - Stanislaw
Genevieve - Genowefa
Casimer - Kazimierz
Joseph - Jozef
Anna - Anna
and
Marian Louise - ?
The last name is double, Louise is a female English version of Louis = Ludwik, in Polish Ludwika
While Marian is a male name in Polish, Louise if a woman name in English.
Therefore we have a choice:
- either typo in Marian, and the female Maria Louise = Maria Ludwika;
- or typo in Louise, and the male Marian Louis = Marian Ludwik
The child was born in the US, and you know better than me if boys are named Marian there.
What I know from France, is that Marian here is spelled like Marianne, woman name, and it's very hard for a man to live with.
The other children's names are all classic, and English like.
My opinion therefore is that the typo is in Marian, should be Maria, with the full name Maria Louise, given to the smalest child, daughter of father Ludwik.

I wonder if you could get their birth certificates from Pennsylvania?

Best,
Elzbieta
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PolishLibrarian
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:25 pm      Post subject:
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In U.S. the female name is spelled Marian and for a man it is spelled Marion (most famous case Marion Morrison became John Wayne).

Marion Louise on the 1940 census is 4 and female. As your father's sister she would be your aunt.

from Jan. 6
singingfalls wrote:
Of interest. I had previously posted that there was a Marian Petraszczuk in the vicinity. My assumption was that this was a female name. It is not. This could very well be my great uncle who we called Marianka. This individual changed his name also from Petraszczuk to Pietrowski.


Attached is the Naturalization Record from 1926 for Maria[o]n Petraszczuk changed to Pio[e]trowski (interchange the letter before the bracket with the letter enclosed in the bracket) who immigrated in 1910 from Chrabusno Russia. On his WWII registration he also signed his name Maryan & he's in a 1950 city directory with the same spelling. I would guess this might be because that is how the Polish speaker would pronounce the name Marian. By signing his name Maryan, the American reader would then pronounce it the way it was spelled. It's possible this person is the brother of Ludwik Petraszczuk (it seems he came from the same village), and if so he would be your father's uncle, or your great uncle as you mentioned yesterday. ~PL



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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:46 pm      Post subject:
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Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Re: Marian
The attached "Declaration of Intention" gives 6 names of children:
Stanley - Stanislaw
Genevieve - Genowefa
Casimer - Kazimierz
Joseph - Jozef
Anna - Anna
and
Marian Louise - ?
The last name is double, Louise is a female English version of Louis = Ludwik, in Polish Ludwika
While Marian is a male name in Polish, Louise if a woman name in English.
Therefore we have a choice:
- either typo in Marian, and the female Maria Louise = Maria Ludwika;
- or typo in Louise, and the male Marian Louis = Marian Ludwik
The child was born in the US, and you know better than me if boys are named Marian there.
What I know from France, is that Marian here is spelled like Marianne, woman name, and it's very hard for a man to live with.
The other children's names are all classic, and English like.
My opinion therefore is that the typo is in Marian, should be Maria, with the full name Maria Louise, given to the smalest child, daughter of father Ludwik.

I wonder if you could get their birth certificates from Pennsylvania?

Best,
Elzbieta

Dear Elzbieta,
We called her ciotka Mania.

Staś
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:37 pm      Post subject:
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PolishLibrarian wrote:
In U.S. the female name is spelled Marian and for a man it is spelled Marion (most famous case Marion Morrison became John Wayne).

Marion Louise on the 1940 census is 4 and female. As your father's sister she would be your aunt.

from Jan. 6
singingfalls wrote:
Of interest. I had previously posted that there was a Marian Petraszczuk in the vicinity. My assumption was that this was a female name. It is not. This could very well be my great uncle who we called Marianka. This individual changed his name also from Petraszczuk to Pietrowski.


Attached is the Naturalization Record from 1926 for Maria[o]n Petraszczuk changed to Pio[e]trowski (interchange the letter before the bracket with the letter enclosed in the bracket) who immigrated in 1910 from Chrabusno Russia. On his WWII registration he also signed his name Maryan & he's in a 1950 city directory with the same spelling. I would guess this might be because that is how the Polish speaker would pronounce the name Marian. By signing his name Maryan, the American reader would then pronounce it the way it was spelled. It's possible this person is the brother of Ludwik Petraszczuk (it seems he came from the same village), and if so he would be your father's uncle, or your great uncle as you mentioned yesterday. ~PL


PolishLibrarian,

I am completely overwhelmed and in a state of shock because of this great flood tide of intimate information. I am the product of a generation of Americans who has not known their roots at all.

I am 67 and now I am at the point of almost weeping because this information is nothing I have ever known, much to my shame. What great value it has to me now. I never knew that uncle Maryanka was my great uncle! He had a very beautiful home with fancy Persian like rugs all over the place and very floral upholstery on all of his furniture.

Babush never ever ever had idle hands. She would crochet all of the time with the most ornate designs. Dzjadek's house was covered top to bottom with her work. Curtains, table clothes and arm rests on all the furniture and many other unique places along with doilies for all cups, dishes and glasses. This, with raising many children. I remember that she made her own kilbasa and many other traditional foods. Christmas and Easter, I am unable to describe what they were like at their house. She and all of my aunts would make the fanciest Easter eggs you could ever imagine using bees wax.

I am not sure, but one tid bit of information I VAGUELY recall was that when Babush came to the States she stayed with Maryanka before she was married to Dzjadek. This may have been an arranged marriage? She came here when she was 16 years old from Adamówka, Poland and married when she was nineteen.

Through the internet a young man from Adamówka, who is of the Kyć family of Babush, has sent me the very family line of my great great grandfather just in the past week.

How grateful can I be to this community on this Board in particular for engaging a total stranger with such kindness in the help you have given me? You have helped me so much and I am overwhelmed with this information. I have not given up yet and will try to find my Dzjadek's family over in the old country also.

I am totally blown away!

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Kyć - Adamówka
Wlaź - Lucków Górny
Petraszczuk - Khrabuzna, Ukraine
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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:15 am      Post subject:
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A 1934 directory tells me catholic records were in Zborow parish.
There are LDS films:
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/676987?availability=Family%20History%20Library
A Film Note states 'May include surrounding villages within the parish. Includes records for people not belonging to the parish'.

Urlow has flms, too, but only to greek-catholic and covering up to 1864.

Gilberto
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singingfalls
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:47 am      Post subject:
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Magroski49 wrote:
A 1934 directory tells me catholic records were in Zborow parish.
There are LDS films:
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/676987?availability=Family%20History%20Library
A Film Note states 'May include surrounding villages within the parish. Includes records for people not belonging to the parish'.

Urlow has flms, too, but only to greek-catholic and covering up to 1864.

Gilberto


OK, now we are getting down to genealogy lesson 201 and the next level. This would certainly include whatever was not destroyed during the war I would guess. What is the best way to proceed from here? Would these records cover Poland, Ukraine or both? You seem to imply a regional record storage. Are there tools on line that would give me an overview of what strategies to use on these types of things? I am anxious to learn. And my real question to ask is-are these relatives of mine Polish or Ukrainian or both?
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MegSondey



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:47 pm      Post subject:
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"Ukrainians" who are Poles..... well, that is my challenge. My grandfather, Michael Sondey (Sadej) was absolutely Polish and spoke Polish. But.... the place he is from is now in Ukraine! No, he was never "Ukrainian" nor did he ever claim to be one. But when he and some of his siblings emigrated it was considered part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and many of the records list them as "Austrian." I would dearly love to learn more about the village where he grew up (Lukowies) and the larger city where apparently some of the family may have lived ("Lemberg") but I'm still working on figuring out exactly which records where I need to consult! I have found some LDS records of Lukowies and that's what I'm working on right now.... absolutely tons of "Sadej" family members there. I just need to get back to the LDS library near my hometown to go through the records some more.
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