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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Post Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:11 pm      Post subject:
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Debs, one additional note for you. Since Marianne was transferred to the list of single women on the manifest for the Stonehouse, you can see her listed a second time - - on Family Search, New Zealand Passenger Lists 1839-1973, Canterbury arrivals, 1874, Stonehouse, you saw her already on Image 14 of 71, but she is also with the single women on Image 66 of 71.
Best regards,
Sophia
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DsS



Joined: 15 Mar 2015
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Post Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:36 pm      Post subject:
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-37257-8902-35?cc=1930345&wc=SJKY-N3N:226980301,228142401,226974803,228169103

The 1869 Census, page 260/house 656, shows a Tomas 1826 and a Aniska 1846, also a Mariana seliga 1851.. It show a reference 2231/ Australia 1874.. Could this be them??

Also I found a while back, on a list a Mary Szeliga, father Michael Szeliga in a Slovakia/Church and Synagoge Books 1592 - 1910. Sadly I am unable to open to view.
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DsS



Joined: 15 Mar 2015
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Post Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:56 pm      Post subject:
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Hi PL.... again. I looked at the Kubala family who lived in Gore. They originally did go to Oxford with my Marianne and Roman later moved down south and the others went also, but I think maybe a little later (not to sure from memory) but it is recorded where they live and move here in NZ. 8 members of the Kubala family are buried in the Gore cemetery. Tomas and Agnes, a grandchild, Cyril, Roman and wife and cannot recall at the this minute the others. However I did speak to a couple of the Kubala family yesterday. They are a close knit family. Also one of the nephews of Adrian Kubala I spoke to, went to Poland to try and do some research but sadly the language barrier meant he could not progress. I have promised them that I will forward what ever I am able to pass on, as it seems the Szeliga and Kubala's did have some close family contact somehow... 'somehow'. Also from similar or same region/s.

So grateful for your assistance, it means the world to me, honestly does.

Where about's in New Zealand did you come to and visit PL? I have been looking at some of the video clips of Poland and regions, some of the clips from this site to, and I am awestruck of the beauty of the country and the old infrastructure and new. The buildings are exquisite, I love the castles, churches and synagogues, and in other regions to. Our European history here in NZ is in infancy c1820's. Sadly we lost a lot of our older architecture and some more recent buildings in the Christchurch Earthquake. Also sadly some loss of life. But slowly the Township of Chch is rebuilding.
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PolishLibrarian
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Joined: 28 Aug 2010
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Post Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:20 pm      Post subject:
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This certainly looks like the right family. I would think Aniška would be Agnes in English (Polish is Agnieszka). Dates are spot on. It looks like Marianna's surname is Šeliga (pronounced sheliga, which could sound like szeliga).

I wonder if anyone here is familiar enough with Czech to figure out the first word on the bottom line. It looks to me like n?vlastni but putting in various vowels it doesn't translate to anything in English. I just tried this spelling nevlastní and that translates to half. The second word is sestra which translates to sister and then T. Kubala. So that may mean that Marianna is Tomáš half-sister. That would mean his mother remarried a Šeliga when his father died. One of the family trees on Ancestry has Thomas Kubala's parents as Vincent Kubala (1789-?) and Marianna Lidiak and Vincent's parents as Jan Kubala 1733-? and Rozina Hradecey (no print sources noted). As I said before, the family tree also said that Thomas was born in 1826 in Frenštát pod Radhoštem, North Moravia, Czech Republic. Looks like you are making great progress. ~PL
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PolishLibrarian
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Joined: 28 Aug 2010
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Post Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:51 pm      Post subject:
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DsS wrote:
Hi PL.... again.
Where about's in New Zealand did you come to and visit PL? I have been looking at some of the video clips of Poland and regions, some of the clips from this site to, and I am awestruck of the beauty of the country and the old infrastructure and new. The buildings are exquisite, I love the castles, churches and synagogues, and in other regions to. Our European history here in NZ is in infancy c1820's. Sadly we lost a lot of our older architecture and some more recent buildings in the Christchurch Earthquake. Also sadly some loss of life. But slowly the Township of Chch is rebuilding.


Shocked You won't believe this but in 2004 I was in Clinton, 41 km east of Gore. My high school penpal, Maureen, many long years ago was from Balclutha. When I made my trip to NZ I did a 2 wk. walking/bus tour from Christchurch to the West Coast to Queenstown to the Hollyford Trek to Milford Sound to Mt. Cook and back to Christchurch (I was very upset to hear about the damage to Christchurch - my B&B survived though - it was only a few blocks from Cathedral Square). When that tour ended I flew to Dunedin and went to Balclutha to try to find out what happened to my penpal (now 32 years later) - I found her sister who told me she was in England. I got this penpal because my cousin's NZ penpal had a friend (Maureen) who wanted a U.S. penpal. My cousin's penpal & her husband are sheep farmers in Clinton - so I went there to find her & succeeded! Then I spent another 10 days on the North Island (Rotorua, Auckland, and the Bay of Islands). It truly is a small world.

It was after this successful trip to find Maureen and my cousin's penpal that I embarked on my journey to find out about my paternal Polish grandparents - all I knew were their names and that they were from Poland and that they died in about 1924 when my father was 3 1/2 yrs. old. They are from the area south of Krakow towards Zakopane. I went there in 2009, met living Polish relatives there, & found that it is very beautiful. There is nothing like seeing the original baptism & marriage records from the 1870s & 80s in person and standing in the churches where my grandparents were baptized. My maternal great grandparents came from Bohemia, just to the west of Moravia where the Kubalas and Szeligas were from. Wink ~PL
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nfstev



Joined: 17 Feb 2015
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Post Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:28 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Debs,
Nice work. You have now established your family roots to a village and a house number in the Czech Republic. Keep in mind that when your family lived there it was known as Moravia, Austria.
I did a quick look at that 262 house number in the 1857 census and it appears that it was inhabited by a different family.
In addition to the census records, there are birth, marriage and death records available in the various Czech Republic Archives. As I indicated in a previous posting, I engaged a genealogy research firm in the Czech Republic to located and translate my family records. I was fortunate to have already known my mother-in-laws ancestral home and the Czech research firm located all of the census records for me. I needed a marriage record to tie together some of the census records and the research firm was able to accommodate that for me too.
Just so you know what to expect when you deal with the archives is that they do not permit photo copies of the original documents because of their delicate condition. Thus, all of the information has to be transcribed as it appears on the document. Also, many of the documents are in German and have to be translated.
Here is the name and location of the historic Roman Catholic Church in Frenštát:
Kostel sv. Jana Křtitele (St. John the Baptist)
Horní, 744 01
Frenštát pod Radhoštěm, Czech Republic
If you do a google search for the church using the Czech language, there are several Czech sites you can translate for more information.
At some point you may want to post on some Moravia/Czech Republic forum for further assistance.
Norbert

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nfstev



Joined: 17 Feb 2015
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Post Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:59 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Debs,
The Czech Regional Archives have some on-line vital records for Frenstat. The Regional Archive for Frenstat is the Northern Moravia Archive located in Opava. Here is link to their website:
http://www.archives.cz/zao/digitalni_archiv/index.html
On the home page click on the box called “Matricky”. Next click on the “Specific Filter” box and from the drop down box for “Originator” select Frenštát pod Radhoštěm, from the drop down box for “Sort” select N (births) and from the drop down box for “Type” select katolicka. Click on the “Date Range” hyperlink and type in “from” 1846 “to” 1852 than click on the two “x” to close and save the filter information.
Next click on “Search”. The search should produce four (4) results. Select the result for Frenstat 1843-1854 which will show 282 scanned records.
Then it’s a matter of going through the records one-by-one trying to locate a baptismal record for Marina Szeliga. I found a record that may or may not be for your Marianne. It’s in Latin but there are links on this Forum for assistance in translating Latin documents.
Norbert



Szeliga Marianne Baptismal Record from Archives cropped.jpg
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Szeliga Marianne Baptismal Record from Archives cropped.jpg



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DsS



Joined: 15 Mar 2015
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:07 am      Post subject:
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NORBERT STEVENS!! Thank you so much for taking the time out for me! Truly I am very very grateful!... I will follow the above instructions tonight to see what I can unfold, thank you.

THANK YOU for the above Baptismal record, your a 'gem'...
Edited to add: I've just looked again at the Baptism record and I can see the father as Anton Szeliga. (?) Just curious, and wonder if this is another child of maybe a brother of my Marianne/a's father Michael/Michal..
I have a death cert here in NZ for Marianne/known as Mary in NZ and it states her mother was Mary/Marianne/a and Michael/Michal SZELIGA/Seliga.

Can I inquire as to the actual costs for engaging a researcher?? I have absolutely no-idea in regards to hiring help.


Last edited by DsS on Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:19 am      Post subject:
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Excellent to know these Czech records are online. The sample record that Norbert attached is in German, not Latin. I can help you to the extent of reading the column headings.... my translations are approximate...will accept corrections gracefully!
The page heading is Geburtsbuch (book of births).
First column: Zeit der Geburt und Taufe. Hat getauft. (time of birth and baptism. baptized.)
Second column: Haus Nro. (house number, I think, and this could be REALLY useful to you since you already know a house number)
Third column: Namen des Taeuflings (names of the baptized)
Fourth column: Religion (religion), with a choice between katolisch (catholic) and protestantisch (protestant)
Fifth column: Geschlecht (sex), with a choice between maennlich (male) and weiblich (female)
Sixth and seventh column: choice between ehelich (legitimate) and unehelich (illegitimate)
Eighth column: Eltern (parents), Vater (father), Mutter (mother) and indication of religion of each
Ninth column: Pathen (nowadays spelled Paten, godparents), Namen (names) and Stand (status)
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nfstev



Joined: 17 Feb 2015
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:50 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Debs,
I engaged my research firm in February 2004. Here is what they did and what they charged me for their services 11 years ago in U.S. dollars.
1890 & 1900 census for paternal side - originals and translations $60.00.
1857, 1869, & 1880 census for paternal side – originals and translations $90.00.
1850, 1857, 1869 & 1880 census for maternal side – originals and translations $120.00.
The census research, translation and reproduction costs breaks-down to $30.00 per census
Research in the Czech Archives and the translation of a marriage record $65.00.
Most of my communication was through an intermediary in Wisconsin U.S.A. although I did also have an exchange of emails with the actual researcher in the Czech Republic.
It appears that some things have changes since 2004 and a lot of the actual research can now be done on-line instead of visiting the archives. Not knowing the various languages and the political boundary changes over the years leaves us at a disadvantage.
Norbert

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DsS



Joined: 15 Mar 2015
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:47 pm      Post subject: Many thanks for Translation info!!!!!
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Sophia wrote:
Excellent to know these Czech records are online. The sample record that Norbert attached is in German, not Latin. I can help you to the extent of reading the column headings.... my translations are approximate...will accept corrections gracefully!
The page heading is Geburtsbuch (book of births).
First column: Zeit der Geburt und Taufe. Hat getauft. (time of birth and baptism. baptized.)
Second column: Haus Nro. (house number, I think, and this could be REALLY useful to you since you already know a house number)
Third column: Namen des Taeuflings (names of the baptized)
Fourth column: Religion (religion), with a choice between katolisch (catholic) and protestantisch (protestant)
Fifth column: Geschlecht (sex), with a choice between maennlich (male) and weiblich (female)
Sixth and seventh column: choice between ehelich (legitimate) and unehelich (illegitimate)
Eighth column: Eltern (parents), Vater (father), Mutter (mother) and indication of religion of each
Ninth column: Pathen (nowadays spelled Paten, godparents), Namen (names) and Stand (status)



Hi huge thanks... I could make out a couple of things here and there but all this is 'GREAT' !
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MaryWS



Joined: 30 Jan 2015
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Location: Chicago

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Post Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:34 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Debs,

I am not fluent in German but I am able to read a bit of the old style of writing. I am sorry to say, but the surname on that baptism record is not Szeliga. It appears to be Kaluza or Kaleza - the first letter is definitely a K. If you look at how the word September is written above the entries and then again in the leftmost column of the first entry, you can see two different styles of a capital letter S. Of course you will want to confirm this with someone more fluent than I. But you might not want to give up on Michael and Mary as the parents' names yet. Good luck. Smile
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DsS



Joined: 15 Mar 2015
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:14 am      Post subject: MaryWS....Szeliga...
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MaryWS wrote:
Hi Debs,

I am not fluent in German but I am able to read a bit of the old style of writing. I am sorry to say, but the surname on that baptism record is not Szeliga. It appears to be Kaluza or Kaleza - the first letter is definitely a K. If you look at how the word September is written above the entries and then again in the leftmost column of the first entry, you can see two different styles of a capital letter S. Of course you will want to confirm this with someone more fluent than I. But you might not want to give up on Michael and Mary as the parents' names yet. Good luck. Smile


Hello MaryWS.. I've just got back home. I have been away for a few days. Just catching up now on emails etc. Thank you for your input. I have been looking at writing styles etc and it's certainly mind wrestling. Szeliga/Sckeliga/Seliga/Scheliga...I have sighted a number of versions of the spelling since looking at the family info. From the shipping records, death cert, newspaper clippings.
I do know for sure that my GG Grandmother was a Szeliga/Seliga/Scheliga... and it's written on her death cert that her parents were in fact Michael and Mary (Marianna/Marianne) Szeliga.. This I am very sure of so that is a blessing.

Thank you MaryWS for your info, everything helps!! Very Happy
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DsS



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Post Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:29 am      Post subject:
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PolishLibrarian wrote:
This certainly looks like the right family. I would think Aniška would be Agnes in English (Polish is Agnieszka). Dates are spot on. It looks like Marianna's surname is Šeliga (pronounced sheliga, which could sound like szeliga).

I wonder if anyone here is familiar enough with Czech to figure out the first word on the bottom line. It looks to me like n?vlastni but putting in various vowels it doesn't translate to anything in English. I just tried this spelling nevlastní and that translates to half. The second word is sestra which translates to sister and then T. Kubala. So that may mean that Marianna is Tomáš half-sister. That would mean his mother remarried a Šeliga when his father died. One of the family trees on Ancestry has Thomas Kubala's parents as Vincent Kubala (1789-?) and Marianna Lidiak and Vincent's parents as Jan Kubala 1733-? and Rozina Hradecey (no print sources noted). As I said before, the family tree also said that Thomas was born in 1826 in Frenštát pod Radhoštem, North Moravia, Czech Republic. Looks like you are making great progress. ~PL




https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-37257-8847-17?cc=1930345&wc=SJKY-N3N:226980301,228142401,226974803,228169103

Could this be??? The Lidiak family??? I'm a little sceptical due to the spelling, but then I don't know how to pronounce this name. Is 'Lidiak' a version of the name?

I am just scouring through the Census for that family of Lidiak, then I just realised I've forgotten 'Hradecey' family name... lol... Will just have to recheck those 140 odd pages later... haha

Could anyone let me know if I'm possibly on the button with Lidiak/Lidak... 'please'.. Smile
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nfstev



Joined: 17 Feb 2015
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:46 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Debs,
The age for this Joseph Lidak family would make him a contemporary of Thomas Kubala. I do not think the 1869 census record tells us anything definitive that would link him to Thomas Kubala.
If you are inclined to browse through hundreds of census records, I would suggest moving to the 1857 census records for Frenštát pod Radhoštěm and look for any Kubala and Šeliga family census records.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-37395-6002-47?cc=1930345&wc=SJKB-7M2:226980301,228142401,226976603,1291632504#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2Frecapi%2Fsord%2Fwaypoint%2FSJKB-W38%3A226980301%2C228142401%2C226976603%3Fcc%3D1930345
You can download and save any possible pertinent records to your computer from this site for future reference. You may have to register, but it is free.
Happy hunting.

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