Forum | PolishOrigins :: View topic - No trace of relatives... except a grave?!

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ALAEssex

Joined: 22 May 2025
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Location: London, United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 6:46 am Post subject: No trace of relatives... except a grave?!

Researching my paternal grandfather. Originally I was told he was born in Warsaw but 2 researchers in Poland found nothing for him or any other of his family.
Then found a clue, possible great grandparents mentioned in a book working as music teachers in Kolomyia....
What I do know is;

Grandfather - Robert Waclaw Schnitzer - DOB-18/3/1912, death May 1997 UK
Great Uncle - Roman Schnitzer - DOB-18/7/1905, death 24/12/1984 (buried Czestochowa)
Great Uncle - Ducan Schnitzer - DOB? , Death - ?

Great Grandfather - Michael Schnitzer, music teacher - DOB?, death?
Great Grandmother - Irena (maiden name unknown), - DOB 1880, death 09/06/1946 (buried Czestochowa)

But I can get no further, no birth certificates in any of the male names, can't find the book that mentioned Kolomyia. And now I don't know what to do.

Sophia
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 7:38 am Post subject: Re: No trace of relatives... except a grave?!

ALAEssex wrote:

Hi ALAEssex,

I remember you from our conversation about Golubin. I'm not sure if you saw all of the posts from back then, perhaps you did.

For your grandfather Robert Waclaw Schnitzer, have you obtained a copy of his UK naturalization certificate? Here is the link to what I believe to be his certificate:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C12142565
You will have to visit, or request a copy from the archives. I do not know exactly what information it will contain but it may be useful.

Did your researchers who looked for him in Poland consider the alternative spelling SZNYCER ?

Best regards,
Sophia

ALAEssex

Joined: 22 May 2025
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Location: London, United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 10:19 am Post subject:

Hi Sophia
Yes that was me and everybody was so helpful.
I have been trying to use some of the tools people pointed me towards but I completely hit a brick wall.
I have ordered the naturalisation certificates but they take 16 working days to arrive.
I will go back through the databases trying the surname variations, thanks!
KR
Amanda

looking for clues
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 4:22 am Post subject:

Hi Amanda,
In case you haven't seen these --

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZ6-FZQD?lang=en
Waclaw Robert Schnitzer - Death - England and Wales, Death Registration Index
Shows April 1997 death. It might be worth checking to see if the record show place of birth

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVDW-QVZB?lang=en
Waclaw R Schnitzer and Aleksandra D Konieczna - England and Wales, Marriage Registration Index
October 1948 to December 1948. The marriage record may or may not show specific place of birth. Based on the officiant or location, you may be able to track down more information. Religious records can be a good source of information.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6TSN-C8PN?lang=en
Roberta Wacława Schnitzer - Burial - Find a Grave
Death Date: 20 Apr 1997, Event Type Burial, Event Place: Częstochowa, Miasto Częstochowa, Śląskie, Poland
According to this record, your grandfather was buried in Poland, rather than England where he died.

Find A Grave - searching Schnitzer - Miasto Częstochowa, Śląskie, Poland
Shows Roberta Wacława Schnitzer buried in Plot info: 20, 7, 9 in Cmentarz św. Rocha w Częstochowie, Częstochowa, Miasto Częstochowa, Śląskie, Poland along with his wife, Aleksandra Danuta Schnitzer, his mother, Irena Schnitzer and brother, Roman Schnitzer

https://czestochowa.grobonet.com/grobonet/start.php?id=detale&idg=32987&inni=0
Grobonet provides tombstone photos with inscriptions in Polish

Diane

ALAEssex

Joined: 22 May 2025
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 4:28 am Post subject:

Hi Diane
Yes I have all of that thanks.
It's really the birth records I need, and it's very strange that I cannot find any of them. I thought if I looked for my Grandfather's brothers as well due to their unusual names I might stand more chance of stumbling on a lead....

Sophia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 4:44 am Post subject:

Hi Amanda and Diane,
I was just about to comment on the grobonet images of the stones. I think you could use some help interpreting them. Give me a few minutes....
Sophia

Sophia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 4:49 am Post subject:

Regarding the images on Grobonet of the grave for this family: https://czestochowa.grobonet.com/grobonet/start.php?id=detale&idg=15421&inni=0

You have here a grave of Irena Schnitzer and Roman Schnitzer. The line at the bottom of the stone, somewhat obscured by the grass, says, "Bóg tak chciał." This means, "God willed it so." Or, if you prefer, "It was God's will."

The added marker says:

Tu spoczywają prochy zmarłych w Anglii
ŚP Aleksandry Danuty Schnitzer
zm 30.06.1996
ŚP Roberta Waclawa Schnitzer
zm 20.04.1997

and this, I think, has given you some difficulty. Polish grammar has changed the endings of the names. So there is no brother named Ducan. These two people are a woman named Aleksandra Danuta Schnitzer and your Robert Waclaw Schnitzer. Their ashes were moved to this grave after they died (only a few months apart) in England.

Best regards,
Sophia

ALAEssex

Joined: 22 May 2025
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Location: London, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 4:53 am Post subject:

Hi Sophia
Irena was my grandfather's mother and Roman was his brother who died in the 1980s.
Yes my grandparents died in the UK and they had funerals here, my aunt arranged for their ashes to join my great grandmother and her son.
I was at the funerals of Aleksandra and Robert in the UK.
Unfortunately it does not get me any further with the birth records search which is where I am struggling.
KR
Amanda

Sophia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 5:11 am Post subject:

Hi Amanda,
Very kind of your aunt to make those arrangements.
So the history, as best we know, is that Irena's kids were born in Warsaw, she and Roman eventually move to Czestochowa and Robert moves to the UK where he marries Aleksandra? Is that right?
Have you tried asking the cemetery in Czestochowa if they have a record of the place of birth of Roman?
Are you certain of the spelling Ducan? It is unusual. Do you know anything about him? My apologies for thinking Ducan was a mis-reading of the gravestone by some indexer.
I am trying to think of what other resources we can lean on to find the birth records.
Best regards,
Sophia

ALAEssex

Joined: 22 May 2025
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 6:30 am Post subject:

Hi Sophia,
Not quite.
I was told as a child that Robert was born in Warsaw but 2 researchers found no trace of him or his family at all there.
The only clues I could find was reference to a Michael and Irena Schnitzer teaching at the music school in Kolomyia in the early 1900s and then the graves of Irena (Robert's mother) and Roman (Robert's brother) in Czestochowa. And also my grandparents now being there also.
We definitely know Robert was married in London in 1948 and the birth certificate shows his father as Michael Schnitzer Teacher of Music.

I have looked online to see whether I can find information in Czestochowa which would indicate that was their original home but I cannot find anything. The cemetery have not responded to my requests for burial information for Irena or Roman to see if there is any further information on them.

Ducan I am not sure of, given the information I was originally told was not correct I cannot guarantee that bit is and I also wonder if he died as a child, he never came to visit us in the UK. I do know Roman is right, I met him as a child several times.

Hope that helps
KR
Amanda

Sophia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 7:03 am Post subject:

ALAEssex wrote:

Hi Amanda,

Thank you for the explanation. I really hope we can find some clue to crack this mystery open.

Going back to spelling, if you have the name Schnitzer and want to spell it using the rules of Polish pronunciation, you end up with Sznycer which I mentioned earlier. However, I am also seeing a sort of blending of the two spellings, Sznicer.

While this does not match perfectly with the year of birth of your Robert Wacław, it is interesting to see a Wacław Sznicer, born 1916, whose father's name was Michał, in this list from Steve Morse:

https://stevemorse.org/siberia/siberia.php?=&offset=260101

This is from Steve Morse's "Searching the Polish Index of the Repressed in One Step, Polish Citizens deported to Soviet Forced-Labor Camps in Siberia."

If I find anything else that might be useful, I will post it.

Best regards,
Sophia

ALAEssex

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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 7:21 am Post subject:

As a child I did hear a story about Robert being sent to Siberia and then being turned out of the camp in the winter, eating moss and lichen and getting back to the UK to join the Polish Free Army.... and the Ukraine connection does align with his parents teaching music in Kolomyia which is now in Ukraine?

Sophia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 11:01 am Post subject:

ALAEssex wrote:

Hi Amanda,

Well, perhaps we now have a lead to follow. I think looking for records of the family in Kolomyia (now Ukraine) is the next task.

Your "Ducan" made me think of the name Łukasz (Luke, Lucas). I have seen the name written by hand, and of course individual handwriting is so varied but in my experience, the "sz" often is confused by indexers for the letter "n". I wonder if this name is in your family lore from the back of a photo or from a letter or some other handwritten source. I tried to find an image of the name written by hand and this example was the quickest that I could find, although it does not exactly get my point across. Anyway, see what you think.

Best regards,
Sophia

Lukasz.png

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Sophia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 6:18 pm Post subject:

Hi Amanda,

Your initial post said that your great-grandfather was mentioned in a book as a music teacher in Kolomyia.

Here is a book from 1936 which mentions a Michał Schnitzer in a list of professors of music, in Chyrów:

https://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/publication/39739/edition/39838?search=cmVzdWx0cz9hY3Rpb249QWR2YW5jZWRTZWFyY2hBY3Rpb24mdHlwZT0tMyZwPTAmcWYxPWF2YWlsYWJpbGl0eTpBdmFpbGFibGUmdmFsMT1xOiUyMk1pY2hhbCtTY2huaXR6ZXIlMjI

Go to image 129. It is only a list of names, nothing about him personally.

Do you suppose it is him?

Sophia

ALAEssex

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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 4:57 am Post subject:

Hi Sophia
It could be. At least that gives us another location to focus on.
The previous researcher has told me that birth records for Kolomyia for the years of Roman and Robert's births have not survived. I think if there is any record it is likely to be in Warsaw so my son and I will be coming to the State Archives in late July to see if we can find anything. In the meantime I will look at Przemysl and Chyron records.
Thank you for finding this!
KR
Amanda

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