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mcdonald0517
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Joined: 27 May 2012
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Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:39 pm      Post subject: Please help translate 2 more Krueger Prussian birth records
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Hello again,

I found these two birth records in addition to my G Grandmother Paulina Krueger's.

One is for Carl and one for Johann. The birth mother is Maria Radziminski (same mother listed for Paulina in 1851). However, there is no birth father listed for either record. So, I am not sure if Andreas Krueger (Paulina's father) is their father or another man. And, to add a bit of mystery, Johann's record has an odd seal or stamp in the column for Father. There is also a long remark on that line that I would love to have translated if anyone can make it out.

I am fairly sure the mother of Carl and Johann is also the mother of my G Grandmother Paulina.

On Johann's record, I did not capture the column headers as his is the last entry on the page. However, the columns are the same as shown on Carl's record.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Best,
Cynthia



Carl Kryger birth 1846 pg 1.JPG
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Carl birth pg 1
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Carl Kryger birth 1846 pg 1.JPG



Carl Kryger birth 1846 pg 2.JPG
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Johann Kryger birth 1849 pg 1.JPG
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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:36 am      Post subject:
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Hi Cynthia,

Is it possible you reversed the birth years for these two boys? Your file names suggest that Carl was born in 1846 and Johann in 1849, but I think it is the other way around.

It seems that both were born out of wedlock. These images are not quite as clear as Paulina's was (it is hard to get them clear, I know, I know) but for Carl the notation is quite evident that he is the second "unehelich" (illegitimate) boy born in his year. For Johann it is somewhat fuzzier, but I do still think he has a mark in that same column.

The whole concept of "unehelich" is something you should read about and try to understand in more depth. In particular, there was a way of "reversing" that status if the parents of the child did later marry, but whether that was possible in all religious denominations, I am not well-versed enough in the traditions to know. Some notation of legitimization would appear on the baptism record, but whether that would simply be text that was added or whether in this church a stamp/seal was used, I do not know. So for Johann, in particular, you would do well to get the remarks columns translated. All I can see there is "Die Mutter..." (The mother....) in the first line and the surname Radziminski in the second-to-last line. Another possible explanation for the stamp could be a conversion from one religion to another, but I am just taking wild guesses now. I can tell you that I did, once, in German church records, come across an entire section that I knew was not baptisms or marriages or deaths - - it turned out to be conversions. It was fascinating.

So if the stamp/seal here is an indicator of either legitimization or conversion, then why only one son and not the other? I would suggest you try to see if Carl survived; childhood death rates were very high in those times.

Finally, there is the "boring" possibility that the stamp has nothing to do with Johann. It could just be that the records were audited by some official and he had no where else to make his mark on that page. Were I you, I would be scanning page by page through the records of this church to see if such a mark appears anywhere else.

Best,
Sophia
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:14 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
All I can see there is "Die Mutter..." (The mother....) in the first line and the surname Radziminski in the second-to-last line.


Sophia, your information about conversions is very interesting, thank you very much.

Re: "Die Mutter..." in Johann record - I see Michal Radziminski (in 4-5 lines). Do you see Michal? Who is Michal? Same name as Marianna.

Best,
Elzbieta
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:32 pm      Post subject:
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To Sophia:

Yes, it is entirely possible I mixed up the years for the boys birth records! Thanks for pointing that out.

And, thank you for your info on conversions and legitimate / illegitimate. I will look again to other pages of the book for the stamp, but I am pretty sure this was the only one - that is why it surprised me so much.

To Elzbieta:

Yes, I do see Michal Radziminski in that line. No, I do not know who he is. Could be Maria's father.... Do you see another given name after his that may indicate her parents?

When I return to the center, I will try taking a better picture of just the comment to focus it better and take it larger. I think I will also need to hire a translator for the German script...

Can either of you make out the birth date for Carl and Johann?

Again, thanks so much!
Cynthia
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:39 pm      Post subject:
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mcdonald0517 wrote:

Yes, I do see Michal Radziminski in that line. No, I do not know who he is. Could be Maria's father.... Do you see another given name after his that may indicate her parents?


Cynthia,
Sophia,

Here is my deciphering.
After Michal Radziminski I see a short word von, and Frankenau => Michal Radziminski from Frankenau
Best,
Elzbieta

==
Carl’s
The right page containing Carl’s record have a title:
Vom 18ten Marz bis 22 April // from 18 th Mars to 22 April [Baptism]
The left page containing Carl’s record – first one – says 18 Marz (year=1849 see Sophia) for C3:Baptism, and 9 for C5:Birth, Carl was born 9 March (year=1849))
C9:GodParents: Johann Gottlib Salamon and Eleonor Kosfat

==
Johann’s
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/johann_kryger_birth_1849_pg_1_362.jpg
C3:Baptism: (6) Juli (year=1846 see Sophia) // 6 July 1846
C5:Birth: (22) Juni (year=1846) // 22 June 1846
C9:GodParents: Fridrich Januszewski; Frankenau; Jacob Wachowitz; Glechur?

==
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MaryWS



Joined: 30 Jan 2015
Replies: 12
Location: Chicago

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:38 pm      Post subject:
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Hello Cynthia,

I do not speak German but I can sometimes decipher the old script fairly well.

The third line says "Tochter des verstorbenenen" or daughter of the deceased, referring to Michael Radziminski. I would guess that the words at the start of the fourth line might refer to his occupation/status (based on what I've seen in other records) but I cannot make out what those words might be -- and I could be wrong, too. I agree that the final line indicates Michael Radzminiski of Frankenau.

I have seen a similar stamp once in a record from a different parish (Catholic) but I do not know what it meant, either. In that case I was able to see a clear image of the stamp, and it was a stamp from that particular parish.

Hope that helps a bit.
Mary
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:00 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you so much, Mary! Every little bit helps, and the phrase you translated provides an important clue for me to pursue! I posted an enlarged image of this comment in the German records translation forum. Would you mind looking at it to see if you can make out any other words?

Again, I am very grateful for your help.
Cynthia Very Happy
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heleninnj
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Joined: 19 Feb 2016
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Post Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:46 pm      Post subject:
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At the suggestion of Sophia, I am requesting the help of Mary to further translate the attached portion of a birth certificate of Reisel. She may be my great-grandaunt. I am especially interested in who Dawid Weingarten is on the certificate. many many thanks for helping piece together a puzzle.

Helen



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