dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:27 am
Post subject: Mokry Grunt or not
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | Thank you Elzbieta. Yes, looked 1892, and also 1894, couldn't find my ancestor or his sister Marianna. I didn't go through ever record, but they really seem to be organized by date to me, so not sure if any point. I am really confused why they wouldn't be in there. Marianna's marriage record clearly says she was baptized in Janowo parish and everything else points to origin of zembrus mokry grunt, albeit horribly misspelled in almost all documents. Also looked 1885 for Anthony and 1882 for August, 1 of those was missing the records I believe, the other didn't have my ancestor (all years seem organized by date it seems). I will look at wikipedia you sent...maybe I am just not spotting the records. Uploading my ancestors orgins again....there is no way it's not zembrus mokry grunt right? |
Lyn,
There is nothing in the snips you posted to indicate that it must be Zembrusz Mokry Grunt and really nothing to tell you that Maryanna was necessarily baptized in Janowo. All three Zembrusz villages were in the Gubierna and the diocese of Plock. Maryanna's record just states that she was from Janowo, meaning that is where she lived prior to coming to the US and that she was baptized in the diocese of Plock---no parish necessarily specified. More often than not immigrants did not provide a baptismal certificate at the time of their marriage. The info the priest entered was what they told him orally with varying degrees of exactly how specific that info was. All of which makes me more comfortable recommending the Zembrusz Wielki/Czernice Borowe research horse as a more viable option.
Dave
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:28 am
Post subject:
Thanks Dnowicki. However, are you sure that's the parish you mean? I thought czernice borowe parish records were online? Isn't this them here? http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryki.php?op=kt&ar=13&zs=0175d&sy=1892 If so, I've already looked all through there for them. Also, Marianna's marriage record does say baptised in Janowo parish. Could be wrong I guess, waiting on hopefully getting marriage record of Anthony and margaret's, though the church had no info other then marriage bans when I requested more info on marriage of Margaret and Stanley.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:39 am
Post subject:
I understand now, however same problem if those are in fact the czernice borowe parish records. Not sure what my next step should be, if those are them. Did look in Zaramby too, they aren't there either. Looked in a couple other (I don't remember all) places with high amount of Maluchnik's....mine aren't in any of those either. The places I have dna matches with ancestors from mazowieke, maybe those places I mentioned earlier I should look at next? But, not sure what parishes they belonged to. The places repeating in dna matches were Warszawa and Radzanów. And also a match or 2 from Baranowo, and Borkowo Falenta, think I looked at the Borkowo Falenta ones already or they weren't online yet. I have a very small amount of polish matches for someone who is supposed to be a quarter polish.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:15 am
Post subject:
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | Thanks Dnowicki. However, are you sure that's the parish you mean? I thought czernice borowe parish records were online? Isn't this them here? http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryki.php?op=kt&ar=13&zs=0175d&sy=1892 If so, I've already looked all through there for them. Also, Marianna's marriage record does say baptised in Janowo parish. Could be wrong I guess, waiting on hopefully getting marriage record of Anthony and margaret's, though the church had no info other then marriage bans when I requested more info on marriage of Margaret and Stanley. |
Lyn,
That is the parish I meant. I guess the main page for the archives needs to be updated.
If the snip which reads "ex loco Janowo, bapt(isata) dioc(esis) Plocensis" is from Maryanna's marriage record, it does not say that she was baptized in Janowo. What it does mean is "from the place of Janowo, baptized in the Diocese of Plock" "Ex loco" is what in terms of Latin grammar is called an ablative of place from which or place of origin and all it means is that was where she resided before immigrating and not necessarily where she was born and from the way the Latin reads, not necessarily where she was baptized. It is a clue to where she lived but not necessarily to where she was born or baptized.
Are the DNA matches where the individuals live today? If so, that does not mean that is where yours and their common ancestors lived in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Warszawa/Warsaw has quite a few parishes so I don't think looking there would be easy or helpful.
I don't know what exactly would be a small number of matches for someone who is 1/4 Polish. I've not done any DNA stuff and don't know much about it but going back nine generations I have only one ancestor who was not born in Poland---my mother who was born in Chicago of parents born in Poland. I suppose the number of DNA matches a person would have in Poland would depend on how many ancestral relatives stayed in Poland and how significant matches are say from 9 generations ago.
I guess I'm all out of suggestions about where else you should look.
Hopefully the other marriage records will provide the info you need.
Dave
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:32 am
Post subject:
Alright on Marianna. Though, given that there were many maluchniks born there, I'm shocked they wouldn't have been born in one of the zembrus's.
The Dna matches. I'm not sure where they are today. But, I meant their ancestors were from those places. I have 3 matches with ancestors from Warszawa and 3 from Radzanów. 1 or 2 with Borkowo and 1 with Baranowo. I'm not sure how many polish matches are normal either for someone a quarter polish, but I have 23 pages of matches, and my polish matches aren't even a whole page of that. Bizarrely I have Irish and danish matches in place of my polish matches and some unexplained irish dna. My fathers side is full blooded italian, and I've tested my mothers maternal side, so I know those matches must be from the "polish" side, but it doesn't make any sense. I do think Margaret was truly polish as I have some polish matches and the borkowo ones seem to match as well as several matches with lewandowski, but the maluchnik's I don't know. I am honestly wondering if they were orphaned children taken in. There is nothing in any of my matches to connect me to any Maluchnik's or zembrus's.
Thank you for all your help. I will keep this informed with what the records say, but I don't expect them to shed any new light on things.
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:53 pm
Post subject:
I may have find a descendant of one of the Maluchnik immigrants. I'm not comfortable posting living names online, so if you are interested, please send me a private message and I will pass on what I found.
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:05 pm
Post subject:
I also found the grave of Mary (Marianna) Sokolski in Saint Hyacinth Cemetery. Her grave marker shows an 1890 birth which could fit with the birth record you found. Look on Find a Grave website for Boleslaw Sokolski and look at the photo.
In my family I discovered that it wasn't too unusual for females to end up years older than their stated birth dates.
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:11 am
Post subject:
Thanks looking for clues. I have seen that grave marker before, so you could be right on birth year being 1890, however the birth date she puts on her marriage license was a different month and day then the one I looked at, not just a different year, plus mothers name surname was off I believe. Birthdate January 10, 1894 on marriage and birth October 30, 1890 in record. Possible it was translated wrong, but I can't remember who translated it, but they were knowledgeable and doubt they got it wrong. I will send you a pm regarding living maluchnik ancestor.
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:55 am
Post subject:
I found Alexandra Maluchnik with father Frank and mother Anna Rybacka in krzynowlogo weilka parish, wherever that is. Posted for translations in russian translations topic. Hopefully it will be my big break. Frank and Anna also had a daughter Marianna born 1893. Not sure if I'm grasping at straws here, but does it look like mothers surname on my Marianna's record could be Rybacka miswritten. Heleana could be long form of Anna, too. Hopefully birth record will line up with date of mine. Though found no Stanley or August or Anthony Maluchnik in that parish, and there father is Antoni in every record and mother on Stanley's marriage is Karolina Krosky.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:06 pm
Post subject: Names
Lyn,
Here are some thoughts about your latest post...A possible reason you have not been able to find marriage records for Stanley, August or Anthony in the parish where you found Maryanna's marriage record is that Catholic marriages were supposed to take place in the parish of the bride. If the three boys married girls who lived in another Catholic parish, the wedding would have taken place in the parish where the bride resided.
Here is a short explanation of Latin given (first) names...The forms of Maryanna's parents' given names in the posted record are in the Genitive Case (the case of possession). The way the line reads in English is "the daughter of Anthony (Antoni in Polish) and of Helen (Helena in Polish) nee Krajewska". In Latin the Nominative (subject) form of those two names is Antonius and Helena. The Genitive forms of those names as they appear in he record are Antonii and Helenae. It is true that there are legitimate variations in some Latin given names. The same is true of some given names in English. Names like Helen which begin with the letter "h", which is an aspirate aka a rough breathing which changes the sound of the vowel which follows are prone to variation or what you called a long and a short form. In English the short form of Helen is Ellen (no aspirate). Helen is already a short form of Helena in English. In Latin the name can also appear without the aspirate---Elena---although this is not common. Anna in Latin also sometimes appears with an initial aspirate as Hanna. English forms of Anna also admit of variations like Ann and Anne and also are found with an initial aspirate and also with an aspirate as the last letter of the name, Hanna and Hannah. All the above are legitimate variations of the same given name. However, Helena (Helen) is not a variation (long form) of Anna so I believe that any hope for that being the explanation of the difference in first names is an extremely long shot. A more plausible explanation is the possibility that one or another of the siblings did not know his or her mother's given name---sounds impossible but it could and did happen, especially with the youngest child. A case in point is the youngest daughter (Antonina) of one of my great, great grandfathers. The given name of her birth mother was Barbara. Her birth mother died when she was an infant (not uncommon since childbirth was often deadly for mothers). Her father soon remarried and his second wife's given name as Agnieszka (Agnes) and she was the only mother Antonina knew. When she married, she gave the name of her mother as Agnieszka but she gave it with the surname of her actual birth mother. It is easy to understand how all this happened and everything makes sense when you have all the pertinent documents. This leads to the surname variation between Rybacka and what is clear in the marriage record---Krajewska. It is hard to imagine that the Polish priest in the USA mistook Rybacka for Krajewska----the two sound nothing alike. The more possible explanation, if indeed both records are dealing with the same individual, could be something like what happened in the example I just gave. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of variations/errors which would have to come together to make that explanation viable. Although few things are impossible, the more convoluted an explanation becomes the less likely it is to be viable.
One final thought/question...does the marriage info for Stanley come from the civil source or from a church record? Either way, if you would post it, perhaps there is some clue to be found there which may hold the key to reconciling his and Maryanna's birth mother's names.
I don't intend all the above to quash your hopes for an explanation but it is always good to have the difficulties clearly spelled out so that they can be addressed.
Dave
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:31 pm
Post subject:
Thanks for the information Dnowicki. I do have where they all married, just waiting on hearing back from churches for the full records. Called st hedwigs today as had been 2 weeks and was told their records would take a few more days. Was helped elsewhere in this topic where someone found August's and still waiting on that record as well. Here is the record... http://mediasvc.ancestry.com/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/b9bcfd3b-1a94-4d47-8cf0-18172d6d8fb4.jpg?client=Trees It is state copy. St. hedwigs didn't have any additional info other then the marriage bans when I requested. Hopefully they will have more info for Anthony's marriage if he married there. This is only record I have other then Marianna's marriage where it lists mothers name, as Anthony's death certificate has mother as unknown and August's death certificate has both parents as unknown.
I don't suppose anyone can take a quick look at this Marianna birth certificate attached below and tell me whether or not birthdate is January 10th? (or close to that) Either way I will stick with awaiting full translation, as I think the daughter Alexandra is at the very least a cousin of my Maluchnik's, based on fact she traveled with what I'm pretty sure is my August. (That is assuming that this is the Alexandra on the boat with August who was heading to father Frank. I suppose there could be 2 close in age with father Frank, with how often the Maluchnik's reused names) I may have to look backwards and see if this Frank had a brother, Anthony. If the parents of my Maluchnik's really didn't register the births or get baptisms, it may be my only option. edit: Not seeing brother Antoni when I search, but his fathers name likely was Antoni. http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?rid=1133&from_date=1833&to_date=1866&search_lastname=maluchnik&search_lastname2=&exac=1&rpp1=0&bdm=B&w=07mz&op=gt&lang=pol I will have to look through them manually at some point as search must not have them all indexed.
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
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Replies: 122
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:59 pm
Post subject:
If the birth date discrepancy was the only issue, Maryanna's I thought the birth record could have been the one found earlier, 1890 actually matches the age in the 1940 census; but a different birth mother surname puts it in a different category.
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:40 pm
Post subject:
There is also the problem of if that's her then why aren't her siblings in the records there? The same parents should have born a Stanley, August and Anthony at least. I wonder if maybe they were cousins who just referred to each other as siblings, hense the obituary and passenger manifests. Though this still doesn't explain why no birth or baptism records if they really were from zembrus area.
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:49 pm
Post subject:
| Lyn1982 wrote: |
I don't suppose anyone can take a quick look at this Marianna birth certificate attached below and tell me whether or not birthdate is January 10th? (or close to that) |
Lyn,
Here it is.
Best,
Elzbieta
==PO262Cyr:
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/mariannamaluchnikfatherfrankbirthresized_470.png
DATE-of-ACT: /13/25/ - 25 February 1893, 11 am, in the village Krzynowłoga Wielka
FATHER: Franciszek Maluchnik, 34 years old, laborer residing in the village Wasiły
MOTHER: Anna born Rybacka, 28 years old, his wife
KTO: Maryanna Maluchnik, born /11/23/ - 23 February 1893, 6 pm, in the village Wasiły
WITNESSES: Szymon Pazdrag, 59 years old, and Aleksander Jasinski, 30 years old, the first one church caretaker, the second laborer, residing in the village Krzynowloga Wielka
GODPARENTS: Jan Kuklinski and Karolina Rybacka
Wasiły, 37
It happened in the village Krzynowłoga Wielka in the day /13/25/ February 1893, 11 am. Appeared in Franciszek Maluchnik, 34 years old, laborer residing in the village Wasiły, in consciousness of Szymon Pazdrag, 59 years old, and Aleksander Jasinski, 30 years old, the first one church caretaker, the second laborer, residing in the village Krzynowloga Wielka, and presented us a female child, declaring he was born in the village Wasiły, on /11/23/ February current year, 6 pm, with his wife Anna born Rybacka, 28 years old. On the holy baptism held today the child has been given the name Maryanna and her godparents were Jan Kuklinski and Karolina Rybacka. This act …
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sirdanPO Top Contributor
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