Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:48 am
Post subject: Need help Identifying town!
Hi! I have been having trouble locating records for my Great Grandfather and I want to make sure I am reading this correctly. My guess was Ruda, Sarzyna. He also lists his last permanent residence as Germany? I thought I read once that in order to depart from certain ports you had to live in the country for a certain period of time so I am guessing thats why he lists Germany. Anyone have any idea if that is true? He has been a hard one to figure out! His death certificate also says he's from Krzeszow. I'd try to track him down through his parents but I haven't been able to confirm their actual names. He lists his parents as Agnieszka and Sebastyan on his marriage record in Massachusetts and mentions his father is Sebastyan in the ship manifest. On his Death Cert. his parents are listed as Thomas and Anastasia and on another record as well (cant remember which one). The name Thomas is also my uncle and great uncle's middle name so I have no idea which are the names of his actual parents! Both have convincing evidence! I can't find anything from Poland and would prefer not to waste anymore time looking in the wrong place so I figured I'd ask for an opinion! He is on Line 3. Any input would be great!
Thanks!
Laurie G.
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
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Replies: 504
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:49 am
Post subject:
Laurie,
His father's name is most likely Sebastyn. Death certificates can have mistakes depending on the informant. On his ship manifest, and marriage record HE would have been the one to give the information. Do you have the church record of their marriage? That might have his place of baptism, since he would have to have that sacrament before the marriage sacrament. I have been told that if it's not in the actual marriage record book of the church, it should be in a wedding banns book.
Did you actually find a Ruda Sarzyna? I can't make it out, but it looks like there are a couple more letters in that name. The manifest says that Ruda ______ is in Galicia, which was Austria ruled Poland at the time. That may or may not be where your great grandfather was born, but this is where Sebastyn lived when your great grandfather immigrated.
Your great grandfather's last place of residence was Jablonowo, in German ruled Poland. There appears to be more than one village in German ruled Poland named Jablonowo. At this time there was no country called Poland - there were three partitions, the other being Russian ruled Poland. Where does it say that he was born? Does it just say Germany? You cut that off. Oh, I see now that it just says Ruda. Do you have naturalization papers for Mateusz?
Cheri
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:30 am
Post subject:
Hi Cheri,
If you check out google maps, you will see there is a Ruda Łańcucka very close to Sarzyna and Krzeszow. What do you think of it? I agree with you that Sebastian is the more likely name of the father, for the reason you gave.
Sophia
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:01 pm
Post subject:
Sophia,
You must be correct. Laurie, I guess you were right that it says Sarzyna. At this site http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Kolbuszowa/sl_ruda,nearlezajsk.htm it says "In present day Poland Ruda is in the Podkarpackie Województwo [ Province ] (formerly Rzeszowskie Woj.), Leźajski Powiat [ County ] and Nowa Sarzyna Gmina [ Rural Administrative District ]".
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:25 pm
Post subject:
Laurie,
You wrote " I thought I read once that in order to depart from certain ports you had to live in the country for a certain period of time so I am guessing thats why he lists Germany. Anyone have any idea if that is true?"
Just from my experience looking at manifests, most had the last residence and place of birth the same. Mateusz might have moved to Jablonowo for work.
Cheri
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:12 pm
Post subject:
Wow thank you everyone so much for your help. I am always so amazed at the wonderful help I get here!! anyone know what archives I could look in to find records from Ruda, in Lezajski county?
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:13 pm
Post subject:
Thank you Sophia and Cheri!!
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:22 pm
Post subject:
| Cheri Vanden Berg wrote: | Laurie,
His father's name is most likely Sebastyn. Death certificates can have mistakes depending on the informant. On his ship manifest, and marriage record HE would have been the one to give the information. Do you have the church record of their marriage? That might have his place of baptism, since he would have to have that sacrament before the marriage sacrament. I have been told that if it's not in the actual marriage record book of the church, it should be in a wedding banns book.
Did you actually find a Ruda Sarzyna? I can't make it out, but it looks like there are a couple more letters in that name. The manifest says that Ruda ______ is in Galicia, which was Austria ruled Poland at the time. That may or may not be where your great grandfather was born, but this is where Sebastyn lived when your great grandfather immigrated.
Your great grandfather's last place of residence was Jablonowo, in German ruled Poland. There appears to be more than one village in German ruled Poland named Jablonowo. At this time there was no country called Poland - there were three partitions, the other being Russian ruled Poland. Where does it say that he was born? Does it just say Germany? You cut that off. Oh, I see now that it just says Ruda. Do you have naturalization papers for Mateusz?
Cheri |
Cheri-
I believe the Naturalization papers may be at my aunt's house. I do have the date he was Naturalized here in my notebook. I will be going to check her documents and pictures again next week. My memaw had mentioned something about him being in Moravia as well, but I can't be sure that information is correct. She was his daughter in law and is no longer living. Not all information she had for her husband's (my grandfather) family has been correct. My grandfather passed back in 89.
As far as Jablonowo is concerned, that looks like it might say Jablonowo Pormorska to me. What do you think?
Thanks!
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:41 am
Post subject:
Laurie,
I see the word below Jablonowo as Poznanska rather than Pomorska. Do you know if your great-grandfather had siblings who also emigrated? If so, have you looked for their ship manifests? You might get a clearer idea of what these towns are.
Sophia
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:59 am
Post subject:
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:14 am
Post subject:
I think that whatever the name is that is after Jablonowo, it belongs to the person in line 4. I have attached the birth place from Mateusz' line 3 and the birth place from line 4.
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:18 am
Post subject:
Cheri, that does help.
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:35 am
Post subject:
Laurie,
Are you familiar with the Polish State Archives site? http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/ If not, this might help:
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/images/a/a1/How_to_Use_the_Digitized_Records_of_the_Polish_State_Archives%29.pdf
However, I'm assuming that all that Sophia found for Ruda Łańcucka was the map (as did I), and all I found for Sarzyna was this map from 1853 that the Austrian government had done. It show Ruda on one of the borders of Sarzyna.http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/56/126/0/-/1485?q=Sarzyna+XSKANro:t&wynik=1&rpp=15&page=1#tabSkany I have been told that you have to get the property key from the Archives, and that should show who the landowners were. As far as I know, the online State Archives is a work in progress...
It looks like Ruda Łańcucka is a very small village. When I searched for a church, I came up with what is on the attachment. I would assume that the people of Ruda would have attended church in Now Sarzyna since it looks like it's only about a mile away.
I also wondered if Krzeszów was in the State Archives. There is another Krzeszów in western Poland. I don't think that the Krzeszów that is near Ruda is in the Archives. I don't think I found a church for that village either. I do remember that Krzeszów was on his death certificate, so I would think that the Ruda on his manifest would be the right village. My mom's cousin told her that my grandfather was born in Kamyszyn, but the manifest for family members all said Świlcza, which is very close to Kamyszyn. The I was lucky enough to find my grandfather, and a few siblings birth records that were on the State Archives site, and he WAS born in Świlcza. I wonder if my mom's cousin's mom wrote to someone from the family in Kamyszyn, and that's why she thought the family was from there.
Cheri
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:35 am
Post subject:
Sophia and Cheri,
You have know idea how much time you have saved me from searching the wrong place! I can't stand the way the lines are in the address column of the manifests they make it so difficult to see which belongs which person. That helps a lot to see them up close and you are right, that definitely looks like Poznanska. Thank you for finding the map! I love these old maps, they are such a great source. Hopefully it will help me with my next lead.
I know he had brothers but nothing about them. I believe one actually lived down the street from him in Massachusetts(we live about 8 hours away in Maryland). His name was Frank. It's just really odd because all my aunts and uncles (my dad recently passed away) that I have asked had never heard of him! Frank listed the same parents (Sebastyan Grz and Agnieszka Gnatek) as Matthew on his marriage cert and Matthew also listed on the next page of the manifest he was going to stay with his brother Franz in Mass so I have to think it must be true that they are brothers! But anyways back to the point... I think Frank only listed that he was from Ruda. I'm going to try to see if I can find any living relatives of Frank's and see if they have any clue! My great grandfather apparently mostly just spoke Polish and he had some form of dementia supposedly for the last 8 years of his life so that's probably where a lot of the misinformation comes from. I thought I was pretty good at this research stuff until it was time to research Matthew. He has been such a mystery! I can't thank you enough for helping me out! Back to searching for a baptism/birth record! Wish me luck!
Laurie
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:11 pm
Post subject:
Laurie, Cheri & Sophia,
The parish in Nowa Sarzyna is a rather recently formed parish. Nowa Sarzyna was a small village within the territory of Sarzyna until the late 1930s when it grew to provide housing for workers at a new chemical plant. Prior to that time the R.C. parish for the area was in Sarzyna. Presently there is a parish in Sarzyna and another in Nowa Sarzyna. Since the parish in Nowa Sarzyna didn't exist prior to 1930 it would seem that the parish where the sacramental records would be found is sw. Sebastiana (St. Sebastian) in Sarzyna. Since it does not appear that the records were filmed and since they do not appear to be housed in the Polish National Archives, it would be necessary to contact the parish directly. In my opinion, the first parish to contact would sw. Sebastiana in Sarzyna.
The Ruda attachment is from the Skorowidz...etc. from the early 1930s and lists the R.C. parish for Ruda as Sarzyna. Two of the attachments give the contact info for the parish in Sarzyna and for the parish in Nowa Sarzyna. The map shows the locations of the three places in relation to each other. The excerpt from the Slownik geograficzny provides a bit of history of Sarzyna and the R.C. parish there. It also states that at the time the Slownik was published (1880-1904) the village of Ruda was part of the parish of Sarzyna.
There could have been a number of reasons why Mateusz left Galicia and resided in the Prov. of Posen/Poznan aka the German Partition. He may have been looking for work or he may have done a preemptive move to avoid conscription into the Austrian army since he was near draft age or any number of other reasons. There are two villages named Jablonowo in what at the time was the Prov. of Posen. The idea that he had to reside in German Poland for a time in order to get on a ship is not very likely. Since both Galicia and the Congress Kingdom (Russian Poland) were landlocked the difficult part of the journey for young men of draft age was crossing the border into the Prov. of Posen. To cross at a legal border crossing a man would need to produce proof of military service. Men who had not served in the military sometimes crossed using another man's documents or else hired a "guide" who would get him across the border at a point distant from the legal crossing areas. Once in German Poland the only thing needed was a steamship ticket. If that had not been purchased back in the village where he lived, a man would usually purchase the ticket from one of the local immigrant ship agents in the Prov. of Posen so that everything would be ready when he arrived at the port of embarkation. The two most frequently used ports for Poles were Hamburg and Bremen. The steamship lines were interested in getting passengers on board who would not be rejected once they arrived in the USA and the companies did what they could to make it as easy as possible for their customers---after all, the immigrant trade was the bread and butter of the steamship lines and the civil authorities in the port cities were not looking to keep people from embarking since the immigrant trade was a major economic engine for the port areas.
If the naturalization papers your aunt has are those which were given to Matt when he became naturalized, that is very cool since there was only one copy of the naturalization certificate and that was given to the new citizen. If that is the case, there are other documents (Declaration of Intention, Petition for Naturalization, etc.) which were not given to the new citizen but remained in the archives of the court. Those papers would also be valuable to have and if your aunt did not specifically obtain those, it would not be a bad idea to obtain them yourself.
Wishing you success in your research,
Dave
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