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Fran Bates



Joined: 02 Sep 2013
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Post Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:59 pm      Post subject: Polish marriages - requirements to have a civil ceremon
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My GGparents were married in the Poznan area in the 1850's. I have a record of a church ceremony and another record of a civil ceremony that has slightly different names. Did people have both ceremonies? Was it a requirement to have a civil ceremony first and then a church ceremony as an option? Thanks.

Fran Bates
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Location: Paris, France

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:34 pm      Post subject: Re: Polish marriages - requirements to have a civil ceremon
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Fran Bates wrote:
My GGparents were married in the Poznan area in the 1850's. I have a record of a church ceremony and another record of a civil ceremony that has slightly different names. Did people have both ceremonies? Was it a requirement to have a civil ceremony first and then a church ceremony as an option? Thanks.

Fran Bates


Fran,

What do you mean by "slightly different names"?

An "exact match" in Polish means taking into account Polish language grammar, suffixes, genders and declensions.

For exemple:
M Kowalski and Ms Kowalska is the same name.
Miss Pawlikowna (-owna) and Miss Pawlik is the same name.
Ms Pawlikowa (-owa) and Ms Pawlik is the same.

Best,
Elzbieta
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Fran Bates



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Post Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:38 pm      Post subject:
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Elzbieta,
By slight differences I mean in spelling. In the entry from the Catholic Parish in Skorzewo (Poznan) there is an entry for the marriage of Laurentius Rudnicki and Margaretha Tomczak and lists Laurentius's mother as Marianna Rudni? [entry 14 in 1874 from the Poznan Project search], a Civil Registry entry [entry 7 1874 Poznan Project] from Dabrowka (Poznan) (Dombrowka) lists a marriage of Lorenz Budnicki and Margarethe Tomczak and lists Lorenz's mother as Marie Kujawiak. All the other data seems to be the same. Could Kujawiak be a maiden name, and the change of Rudnicki to Budnicki just be a clerical error as the data went from Latin to German or Polish? Do you think the entries are for the same people? These are my great grandparents who emigrated to Buffalo, NY by 1880. Thank you.[/b]
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Location: Paris, France

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:37 am      Post subject:
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Fran Bates wrote:
Elzbieta,
By slight differences I mean in spelling. In the entry from the Catholic Parish in Skorzewo (Poznan) there is an entry for the marriage of Laurentius Rudnicki and Margaretha Tomczak and lists Laurentius's mother as Marianna Rudni? [entry 14 in 1874 from the Poznan Project search], a Civil Registry entry [entry 7 1874 Poznan Project] from Dabrowka (Poznan) (Dombrowka) lists a marriage of Lorenz Budnicki and Margarethe Tomczak and lists Lorenz's mother as Marie Kujawiak. All the other data seems to be the same. Could Kujawiak be a maiden name, and the change of Rudnicki to Budnicki just be a clerical error as the data went from Latin to German or Polish? Do you think the entries are for the same people? These are my great grandparents who emigrated to Buffalo, NY by 1880. Thank you.[/b]


Fran,

With your case I could search and verify.

Re: civil and religious ceremony.
The civil records became mandatory with Napoleon Civil Code, at the very beginning of 19 th century, all over Europe. Napoleon said that all his battles will be forgotten, but not the Civil Code, and he was right.
What was first, and what second, varied over time, but everyone understood the importance to have it synchronized within hours or very few days.

Best,
Elzbieta

==
http://poznan-project.psnc.pl/

(Rudnicki, Tomczak)
Catholic parish Skórzewo
entry 14 / 1874

Laurentius Rudnicki (22 years old) 100%
father: Michael Rudnicki , mother: Marianna Rudni?
Margaretha Tomczak (20 years old) 100%
father: Joannes Tomczak , mother: Catharina
Catholic parish Skórzewo records are said not to be online.

(Budnicki, Tomczak)
Civil registry Dąbrówka (Poznań) [Dombrowka]
entry 7 / 1874

Lorenz Budnicki (22 years old) 100%
father: Michael Budnicki , mother: Marie Kujawiak
Margarethe Tomczak (19 years old) 100%
father: Johann Tomczak , mother: Catharine Nyga
Civil registry Dąbrówka (Poznań) is online.

Search:
Collection: 53/1846/0 Urząd Stanu Cywilnego Dąbrówka (pow. poznański) » Series:: 3 Akta małżeństw » File/unit:: 2
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/53/1846/0/3/2/str/1/2/100#tabJednostka
Your scan:
http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/53/1846/0/3/2/skan/full/9-yA-Q5H5oP0bHTCAUWx9A

Clearly wrong indexing by Poznan Project, the name is Rudnicki not Budnicki (R and B are close in handwritten).

My opinion:
The record in German is correct with all details.
Wawrzyn Rudnicki: born in Zegrowo
MargaretheTomczak: born in Gluchowo
You must correct given names and toponyms to recover it in Polish.

Civil Dąbrówka record in Polish:
DATE: 31 October 1874, in Dąbrówka (Poznań)
GROOM: Wawrzyniec Rudnicki, born in Żegrowo, Poland, son of Michał Rudnicki and Maria born Kujawiak, spouses Rudnicki
BRIDE: Małgorzata Tomczak, born in Głuchowo, Poland, daughter of Jan Tomczak and Katarzyna born Nyga, spouses Tomczak
WITNESSES: Antoni Stanisławski, Wojciech Rudnicki (groom, bride and witnesses signed with crosses)

Maria vs Marianna: I recall explanation by Sirdan, a couple of years ago, that the name "Maria" was a kind of sacred for priests (reserved for Virgin Mary), and they were naming girls with Marianna. My family records from Galicia have the grandmother's given name written either Marianna or Anna or Maria on grandchildren's records (with the full filiation you state father and his parents, mother and her parents).

I am quite sure that once you have an access to the scans of parish records (when is another question), things will be more clear.
I guess the maiden name of Marianna Rudnicka, mother, is omitted (or was given in banns, and not reported into marriage record).
"Rudni?" suggests that there is a declension, and the person indexing records could not decipher all letters, or probably was not familiar with Polish grammar, suffixes and declensions to recover it (sometimes it might be difficult).
==
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:07 am      Post subject: Kodeks Cywilny Napoleona // Civil Code Napoleon
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I found an excellent summary in Polish, all Napoleon Civil Code in one page:

http://historia_kobiet.w.interiowo.pl/teksty/kod-na.htm

(translation of the introduction)
==
Napoleonic Civil Code entered into force in France on March 21, 1804 under the name of Code Civil des Français, is still considered a masterpiece of legislation. It is the sum of the elements of the old French customary law, Roman law, canon law, and new rights acquired by the bourgeoisie during the French Revolution. ...

The solutions adopted by French legislators modeled the legislation of other countries, such as the Code of Italian, Spanish, Dutch or Portuguese. With Civil Code, in a very short time, was lifted almost all European feudal system and society subdivided into categories by condition.

The Duchy of Warsaw was created by the will of Napoleon in 1807, its Constitution of 1 May 1808, at the request of the Emperor, includes art. 69, which read: The Code Napoleon is the civil law of the Duchy of Warsaw. And so the French Civil Code became the Polish Civil Code. Was published in 3 books preceded by a preliminary title, contains a total of 2281 articles grouped thematically in 36 laws (titles), each of which entered into force, in its time in France, under the relevant decree.
==

Best,
Elzbieta

NOTE: my few cents

The idea of exhaustive civil BMR records registries is a fundamental law.

The Code Napoleon had a number of good rules, and a number of bad ones.
The worst one being the totally unacceptable conditions of married women - which is probably the reason why this document is published by the Polish website dedicated to Women History // Historia Kobiet.
Such unacceptable conditions of married women did not exist in Polish tradition.

The bad outcomes of Napoleon Code in France:
- women voting rights were granted in France only in 1945, one of the last countries of the world
- a married working woman could not dispose of her own earned money deposited in bank without her husband's written approuval until 1970, while her husband could spent everything without his wife's approuval
- a married woman did not sign her family taxes declaration until almost year 2000; earning family money, but not considered equal even for signature (practicaly speaking it was possible she never sees her husband income declaration!)
- etc.

==

Very interesting history of USC in Poland
Historia rejestracji stanu cywilnego w Polsce // The history of civil status registration in Poland.
http://www.usc.radwanice.pl/?page_id=12

==
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