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braksator



Joined: 27 Jul 2016
Replies: 19

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:55 am      Post subject: Man marries dead baby?
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Consider these records.

Birth of Andrzej Kowacki (28 Nov 1784) Pustkowie, Osiny (Parafia Poczesna)
Pustkowie de Osin. 28 dnia listopada. Ja jak wyżej ochrzciłem Andrzeja syna Szczepan a i Maryanny (CL) małżonków Kowackich. Rodzice chrzestni (PP) Szymon Kaszycki z Poraja i Dorota Grucyna ze wsi Bargły.

Pustkowie, Osiny. 28 of November. I, the above, baptized Andrzej son of Szczepan and Maryanna the legally wed spouses Kowacki. Godfathers (PP) Szymon Kaszycki of Poraj and Dorota Grucyna from the village Bargły.


cropped: http://www.braksator.com/files/CROPPED---Andrzej-Kowacki-28-Nov-1784.jpg
source: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GTP5-9VK3?mode=g&wc=9RRF-VZQ%3A362228601%2C364152901%2C954718601%3Fcc%3D2115410&cc=2115410[img]

Birth of Katarzyna Rajczyk (29 Apr 1789) Osiny (Parafia Poczesna)
cropped: http://www.braksator.com/files/CROPPED---Katarzyna-29-Apr-1789.jpg
source: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9TP5-98TC?i=207&wc=9RRF-VZQ%3A362228601%2C364152901%2C954718601%3Fcc%3D2115410&cc=2115410

Birth of Regina Rajczyk (22 Aug 1782) Osiny (Parafia Poczesna)
cropped: http://www.braksator.com/files/CROPPED---Regina-22-Aug-1792.jpg
source: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GTP5-9VFN?i=224&wc=9RRF-VZQ%3A362228601%2C364152901%2C954718601%3Fcc%3D2115410&cc=2115410

DEATH of Katarzyna Rajczyk @ 2 months of age (4 July 1789) Osiny (Parafia Zrębice)
Note: Mother's name doesn't match, but being 2 months old matches Katarzyna birth record given earlier.
cropped: http://www.braksator.com/files/CROPPED---July-4-1789---Death-Katarzyna-Rajczyk.jpg
source: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRD3-LJY?i=10&wc=9RRY-6TT%3A362228601%2C362905401%2C362906201%3Fcc%3D2115410&cc=2115410

MARRIAGE of Katarzyna Rajczyk @ 20 years of age with Andrzej Kowacki @ 25 years of age (26 Nov 1809) Osiny (Parafia Zrębice)
Osiny w Roku 1809 dnia 26 miesiaca listopada przed Nami Proboszczem Parafii Zrembickiej Urzednikiem stanu cywilnego, gminy Zrembickiej powiatu Lelowskiego w Departamencie Kaliskim stawili Andrzej Kowacki mlodzian majacy podlug zlozonej przed nami metryki wycietej z ksiag kosciola Poczeszenskiego lat dwadziescia piec przy rodzicach dotad zostajacy w assystencji Ojca swego Szczepana i Matki Maryanny Kowackich w Osinach na gospodarstwie osiadlych Wloscian, tudziez Katarzyna Rayczykowna panna dowodzaca zlozona przed Nami Metryke wycieta z ksiag kosciola Poczeszenskiego iz skonczyla rok dwudziesty wieku swego ktora w domu rodzicielskim zostaie w asystencji ojca swego Antoniego i matki Gertrudy Rayczykow na pustkowiu Osinskim Wilki zwanym na gospodarstwie osiadlych wloscian. Strony stawiajace zadaja abysmy do ulozonego miedzy nimi obchodu malzenstwa przystapili, ktorego zapowiedzi uczynione byly w przede drzwiami naszego domu gminnego pierwsza dnia dwunastego miesiaca listopada druga dnia dziewietnastego miesiaca listopada roku 1809 co niedziele o godzinie dwunastej w poludnie. Gdy o zadnem tamowaniu rzeczonego malzenstwa zawiadomienii nie zostalismy, a rodzice niniejszym na obchod malzenstwa zezwalaja przychylajac sie zatem do zadania stron po przeczytaniu wszystkich wyzej wymienionych papierow i dzialu szostego w tytule Kodezu Napoleona o malzenstwie zapytalismy sie przyszlego malzonka i przyszlej malzonki czy chca polaczyc sie z soba zwiazkiem malzenskiem na co gdy kazde z nich oddzielnie odpowiedzialo iz taka jest ich wola. oglaszamy w imieniu prawa iz Andrzej Kowacki Mlodzian i Katarzyna Rayczkowna panna sa polaczeni z soba wezlem malzenstwa z czego spisalismy Akt w przytomnosci Jana Miszchatowskiego liczacego lat trzydziesci i Jana Rzeznika liczacego lat trzydziesci cztery z wsi Poczesny na gospodarstwie osiadlych wloscian nie mniej Tomasza Kryczmunika liczacego lat dwadziescia szesc i Piotra Szymczyka liczacego lat trzydziesci we wsi Osinach na gospodarstwie osiadlych Wloscian. Akt niniejszy zostal stawiajacym przeczytany i przez nas podpisany inne w Aktcie wyrazone osoby pisac nie umieja. Ksiadz Wawrzyniec Gladyszewski Pleban. Zrembicki Urzednik Stanu Cywilnego.

Osiny in 1809 on the 26th day in the month of November before us is the Pastor of Zrębice Parish and the clerk of civil status in Zrębice county Lelowski of the Department of Kalisz, there appeared Andrzej Kowacki a bachelor having had submitted metrics taken from the Poczesna church books, twenty-five years old with parents hitherto being left in the care of his Father Szczepan and his mother Maryanna Kowacki in Osiny living on the farm as peasants, and also Katarzyna of the Rayczyks a bachelorette with evidence composed before us taken from the Poczesna church books that she has finished twenty years of age herself staying in her parent's home in the care of her father Antoni and her mother Gertruda, the Rayczyks, in the place known as Pustkowie Osiny Wilki living on the farm as peasants. Pages being entered demand that we arranged for them between rounds marriage began, which announcements were made at the door of our municipal house the first on the twelfth day in the month of November the second day on the nineteenth day in the month of November 1809, every Sunday at noon. There were no objections of the said marriage announcements, and the parents hereby do allow marriage, therefore, the tasks of the parties after reading all of the above mentioned papers and section six of the Napoleonic Code Of Marriage we asked of the future male spouse and the future female spouse if they want to connect with each other in marriage and each one separately answered that they so wish. We announce in the name of law that Andrzej Kowacki bachelor and Katarzyna Rayczk bachelorette are connected to each other with the knot of marriage of which we wrote down the record in the consciousness of Jan Miszchatowski thirty years old and Jan Rzeznik thirty-four years old of the village Poczesna living on the farm as peasants, no less Tomasz Kryczmunik twenty-six years old and Piotr Szymczyk thirty years old of the village Osiny living on the farm as peasants. This record is entered and read, we signed ourselves as the others mentioned in the record do not know how to write. Priest Wawrzyniec Gladyszewski parson and Zrębice civil registrar.


cropped: http://www.braksator.com/files/CROPPED---Marriage-of-Andrzej-Kowacki-and-Katarzyna-Rajczyk.jpg
source 1: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTC3-DG1?i=2&wc=9RRB-JWL%3A362228601%2C362905401%2C362229901%3Fcc%3D2115410&cc=2115410
source 2: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTC3-DGG?mode=g&i=3&wc=9RRB-JWL%3A362228601%2C362905401%2C362229901%3Fcc%3D2115410&cc=2115410

Marriage of Katarzyna Kowacka and Felix Braxator (1832) (Przyrow)
#44 Przyrów
Dzialo sie w Miescie Przyrówie dnia dziesiatego Wrzesnia tysiac osiemset trzydziestego drugiego roku o godzinie pierwszej po poludniu. wiadomo czyniemy ze w przytomnosci swiadkow Szczepana Skiby lat czterdziesci i Kaspra Ciepielskiego lat trzydziesci szesc majacych obydwoch rolnikow z Przyrowa zamieszkalych ze w dniu dzisiejszym zawarte zostalo religijne malzenstwo miedzy Felixem Braxatorem Mlodzianem, Kowalem w Przyrowie zamieszkalym, urodzonym w Woli Mokrzeskiej z Antoniego i Heleny z Wodeckich, malzonkow Braxatorow tamze zamieszkalych, podlug zlozonej nam metryki urodzenia wyjetej z Ksiag Koscielnych Parafii Zurawskiej lat dwadziescia piec majacym, a Panna Katarzyna corka Andrzeja i Reginy z Rayczykow malzonkow Kowackich w Przyrowie zamieszkalych lat siedemnascie liczaca podlug zlozonej nam Metryki urodzenia wyjetej z ksiag koscielnych Parafij Ziebickiej, urodzona w Osinach i przy rodzicach w Przyrówie zostajaca. Malzenstwo to poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzi w dniach pietnastym dwudziestym drugim i dwudziestym dziewiatym lipca roku biezacego w Parafii Przyrówskiej, jako tez zezwolenie ustne obecnych aktowi malzenstwa rodzicow nowo zaslubionych Felixa Braxatora oswiadczone nastapilo, Tamowania Malzenstwa nie zaszlo Malzonkowie nowi oswiadczaja iz nie zawarli umowe przedslubna. Akt ten stawiajacym Swiadkom przeczytany, przez nich dla nie umiejetnosci pisma zostal nie podpisany
Ksiadz Ludwik Machacewicz Pleban Przyrowski
#44 Przyrów
Happening in Przyrów city the tenth day of September, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two, one o'clock in the afternoon. News is made with the conscious witnesses Szczepan Skiba forty years and Kasper Ciepielski thirty-six years being both farmers residing in Przyrów. The day of today contained a religious marriage between Felix Braxator a bachelor and blacksmith living in Przyrów, born in Wola Mokrzeska to Antoni and Helena Wodecka (the spouses Braxator) where they lived, according to the submission we have of the birth certificate taken from the ecclesiastical books in the Zuraw Parish he is twenty-five years old, and Miss Katarzyna daughter of Andrzej and Regina Rayczyk (the spouses Kowacki) living in Przyrów seventeen years old according to the submission we have of the birth certificate taken from the ecclesiastical books in Ziębice Parish born in Osiny and stays with her parents in Przyrów. Marriage is preceded by three announcements on the days fifteenth twenty-second and twenty-ninth of July of the current year in the Przyrów Parish, and also oral permission of the ones present current record of marriage the parents of the newlyweds Felix Braxator's statement occurred, obstruction of marriage didn't happen. The new spouses proclaim they have not entered into a prenuptial agreement. This act which counts and for the witnesses read by themselves for the ones with no writing skills. Was left not signed.
Priest Ludwik Machacewicz - Parson of Przyrów


cropped: http://www.braksator.com/files/CROPPED--Felix-Braxator-wedding.jpg
source: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9PQW-8ZL?i=81&wc=9RRQ-4WR%3A362228601%2C362909301%2C362241301%3Fcc%3D2115410&cc=2115410

Additional information
I don't have the record, but there was another Katarzyna Rajczyk born in 1809 to Antoni and Gertruda.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK so I have a problem here.

Felix marries this girl Katarzyna, it says her parents are Andrzej and Regina. But I can't find a marriage record for Andrzej and Regina. I can only find one for Andrzej and Katarzyna (Regina's sister) in 1809. Regina and Katarzyna's parents had another baby named Katarzyna also in 1809 - this implies the first Katarzyna died in 1809 - but I can't find any death record. Regina has a baby and names it Katarzyna around 1815 (calculated from info in Felix's marriage record) another indication that her sister Katarzyna may have recently died. From Katarzyna's marriage certificate we can deduce she was born in 1789. In 1789 there is indeed a Katarzyna born, but 2 months later we find that a 2 month old baby named Katarzyna, same surname and same father's name, dies.

Some theories that have gone through my head
- Katarzyna never married Andrzej, it was Regina. The fact that it says Katarzyna is a mistake or a lie.
- Katarzyna never died in 1789, this is a mistake made by the priest/clerk.
- The Katarzyna that dies in 1789 is another baby the guy had with another woman - the clue being the name "Sophia" (or whatever it is) in the death record.
- After Katarzyna dies in 1789 the Rajczyks have another baby and also name it Katarzyna perhaps a couple years later. When she is getting married they quote the wrong birth record and since they're all illiterate and probably don't do dates/years/ages that well either - so nobody notices. Unfortunately no proof of this theory either. This would bring the Katarzyna count up to 3, or 4 including the daughter that marries Felix.

So as it stands right now, in my family tree, I have Andrzej married to Regina and dead baby Katarzyna. This isn't right and I would like to set things straight. I feel I need to find more clues before making the call.

What would you do in my position? What would you look for?
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:43 pm      Post subject:
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Hi,

I do not believe in so many mistakes - I think your hypothesis is incorrect.

1. Birth of Katarzyna Rajczyk (29 Apr 1789) Osiny (Parafia Poczesna), daughter of Antony & Gertruda Rayczyk
2. Birth of Regina Rajczyk (22 Aug 1782) Osiny (Parafia Poczesna), daughter of Antony & Gertruda Rayczyk

3. MARRIAGE of Katarzyna Rajczyk @ 20 years of age with Andrzej Kowacki @ 25 years of age (26 Nov 1809) Osiny (Parafia Zrębice)
tudziez Katarzyna Rayczykowna panna dowodzaca zlozona przed Nami Metryke wycieta z ksiag kosciola Poczeszenskiego iz skonczyla rok dwudziesty wieku swego ktora w domu rodzicielskim zostaie w asystencji ojca swego Antoniego i matki Gertrudy Rayczykow na pustkowiu Osinskim Wilki zwanym na gospodarstwie osiadlych wloscian
BRIDE: Katarzyna Rayczyk, Miss, 20 years old [BIRTH ESTIMATE:1789] according to the birth record from the church Poczesna, in assistance of her father Antoni and mother Gertruda, spouses Rayczyk, residing in Osiny (empty place called Wolfs)

4. Marriage of Katarzyna Kowacka and Felix Braxator (1832) (Przyrow)
BRIDE: Katarzyna Kowacka, 17 years old => BIRTH-ESTIMATE:1815; daughter of Andrzej and Regina born Rayczyk, spouses Kowacki [in 1815, Regina Rayczyk born in 1782 is 18+15=33 years old]

Two sisters, Katarzyna and Regina.
Katarzyna, born in 1789, is 20 in 1809. she is married to Andrzej Kowacki.
She passes between 1809 and 1814, then Andrzej widow is married to her sister Regina, and they have a baby Katarzyna in 1815.

What about that?
Best,
Elzbieta
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braksator



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Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:48 pm      Post subject:
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Sorry but I don't think you've understood. Katarzyna died in 1789. That's the part that needs to be explained.
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:23 am      Post subject:
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braksator wrote:
Sorry but I don't think you've understood. Katarzyna died in 1789. That's the part that needs to be explained.


The DEATH record from 1789 is for Katarzyna, daughter of Antoni and Sophie (Zofia) Rayczyk.
Quote:

Note: Mother's name doesn't match, but being 2 months old matches Katarzyna birth record given earlier.


and
Quote:

I don't have the record, but there was another Katarzyna Rajczyk born in 1809 to Antoni and Gertruda.


I saw a couple of cases, when after a death of a baby with a GivenName, the parents were giving the same given name to a subsequent one. But I did not see two living children of the same parents with the identical given name.

My guess is you have differents Antoni Rayczyk.
Antoni ONE and Gertruda, parents of Katarzyna born 1789, who are alive at the marriage of their daughter in 1809.
Antoni TWO and Zofia, parents of the baby Katarzyna born in 1789, death in 1789.
Antoni THREE and Gertruda, parents of Katarzyna born in 1809 (Antoni THREE could be a son of Antoni ONE; we know that Antoni ONE had a child Regina in 1782, it makes 27 years of difference between Regina born 1782 and that Katarzyna born in 1809, one generation distance).

Best,
Elzbieta
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braksator



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Post Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:05 pm      Post subject:
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Quote:
we know that Antoni ONE had a child Regina in 1782


My mistake it was 1792.

I guess I will continue to look for evidence which will sway me one way or another.
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EANWhitson



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Post Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:34 pm      Post subject:
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I have had a number of instances where I really had a tough time because some people had the same name, but different births or were married to different people.

I've also had many, many instances where a child was named the same as a brother or sister who died. There was one family that I found a THIRD child named Jozef and a sister named Jozefa! I willed them to stop naming the children Jozef because I was sure they would die.

There also seems to be some areas where a name was very popular. I have one ancestor who I have trouble finding because someone of the same name married her widowed stepfather (she herself was a widow) and another person named the same who didn't belong to my family line at all.

I suspect Elzbieta's theory is pretty correct.
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braksator



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Post Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:31 pm      Post subject:
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I don't doubt that children are named in honour of a deceased sibling, I suggested this is probably what happened (around 1809 shortly after Katarzyna married - though no good proof of that either) in my original post. I have also seen two siblings alive at the same time with the same name - one or both go by a middle name.

However when Katarzyna marries Felix the marriage record states "Miss Katarzyna daughter of Andrzej and Regina Rayczyk (the spouses Kowacki) living in Przyrów seventeen years old according to the submission we have of the birth certificate taken from the ecclesiastical books in Zrębice Parish".
So I turn to said books and find only a single Katarzyna, that fits the bill exactly. Curiously 66 days later a record appears saying a 2 month old with the exact same first name, surname, and father's name dies. I can find no other birth record that would account for the second person.

I have the research of another person who descends from the same family, she reads latin and lives in Osiny and knows the history quite well, she's been through all of these books and hasn't pulled up another Antoni that fits the bill either. Things can be missed of course, or something was registered in a parish that hasn't been checked yet.

Now you could easily say, well the mother's name is wrong in the death record, and Katarzyna is indeed alive to marry in 1809, so they have to be two different people, but that doesn't give a clear picture of what the truth actually is. I think it's just as possible that in 1809 when they referred to the Zrebice Parish they pulled up the wrong record. These people were illiterate and probably not so good with dates and would have been unable to reliably confirm if the correct record was quoted. Plus I have some doubt that the Priest would even ask for the peasant bride's opinion on whether he got her name and age correct.

The books themselves, particularly in Zrembice seem like a mess too. Keeping these records was a task thrust upon them not a passion. You can see things are crossed out or inserted afterwards, T's that haven't been crossed, etc... I don't think it's impossible for a mistake to go overlooked and remain in the books.

In the same vein the death record in 1789 could be the mistake, either in the mother's name, the baby's name, or the surname. I say that because I did find another couple named "Antoni & Zofia" from around this same time in the same small village - but their surname was not Rajczyk.

I can be thinking one thing and my hand writes a totally different thing. I told my dad to go to one shop to pick me up and he turned up at a totally different shop. People are incredibly fallible. Also people may have reason to lie, perhaps to avoid the judgement of the church and community.
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EANWhitson



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Post Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:46 am      Post subject:
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Could it be Antoni had something on the side? Does it say that they were married?
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