PolishOrigins Forum

 FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    MemberlistMemberlist    ProfileProfile    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in    RegisterRegister 
Author
Message
Lisa



Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Replies: 88

Back to top
Post Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:01 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

violin 75 ~ you bring up two very good questions. I am wondering, too. Does anyone have any idea as to the answers to these questions??
View user's profile
Send private message
dkupil



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Replies: 16
Location: PA

Back to top
Post Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:31 pm      Post subject: Illegimate births - Reason why Silesia region
Reply with quote

It was a hard life for mother and child being illegitimate in 19C. At the time it was a disgrace being illegitimate they had little to no chance making it, most left came to America for a better life. The area of Silesia which my family was from fell under german law which defines marriage, that why I believe my GGrandfather came to America for a better life. Hope this answers your question.
View user's profile
Send private message
Lisa



Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Replies: 88

Back to top
Post Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:26 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

My great-grandfather's mother married shortly after his birth (but not to his biological father.) My great-grandfather married at 26, started a family, and then came to the United States. We don't know if he maintained contact or not with his biological father. He never indicated whether or not he did.
View user's profile
Send private message
violin75



Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Replies: 73

Back to top
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:57 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Thanks dkupil, it does help.
I was wondering this because I was trying to figure out why he left Poland with no family. He did very well in America for him self and I thank him for all his struggles to make life better but I still wonder about why his decision was made to leave beautiful Poland.This would probably answer the question!There is no knowledge he maintained contact with his father or not either. I will have to ask my Dziadek if there are any stories of his grandfather. I thought it might be hard for a mother to have an illegitimate child during those times but a child is innocent.
When looking at the records I have found many child born illegitimate. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding these births.
Its a hard issue to bring up about someones father especially since it was not known. I will try .I will let everyone know how it goes.
As I am writing this, I am remembering growing up in the Catholic church and how important it is for a woman to keep her virtue.As I learn more about my Dziadek I am going to remember that It was a different time period and I am not going to look at it through my eyes being in 2010.
I am going to research this issue and I will post what I find and hopefully it will help others. I will look at his birth record and see if it gives an indication of other details I had not seen previously.


Last edited by violin75 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile
Send private message
dkupil



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Replies: 16
Location: PA

Back to top
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:49 pm      Post subject: Illegimate births - Reason why Silesia region
Reply with quote

I been researching my family from the Silesia region, regarding illegimate births I,m fimilar with tradition customs of the Silesian region which was affected by Prussian laws. During the 19thC Poland was partitioned by Prussia, Russia and Austria. Prussia was mostly Protestant Lutheran and Catholic and Russia was the Eastern rite Othox, Austria was mostly Catholic. My question is did each partitioned region treat this different, did each region have its own set of laws(civil) as the religion from the different regions handled this matter. Poland was made up of many different ethnic groups and religions during the 19thC Poland did not exist as a country during the 19C so how did this play a role in Polish history was it affected by Prussia, Russia Austria and the language which it recorded in. Silesian records were written in old german not sure about other areas. Could someone shed light on this subject
View user's profile
Send private message
violin75



Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Replies: 73

Back to top
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:57 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Dkupil: thats a wonderful question and might help a lot.
As far as the different region and the records written in: My family is from the Malopolskie region, by Krakow, somewhat. I have researched two different areas: Szczucin(Dabrowa) and Moszczenica(Gorlice), however before WWII Moszczenica was in the Krakowskie region not Malopolskie;both of these records are written in Latin.

This is getting very intriguing!


Last edited by violin75 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile
Send private message
Zenon
PolishOrigins Team Leader


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1470
Location: Poland

Back to top
Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:58 am      Post subject: Re: Illegimate births - Reason why Silesia region
Reply with quote

dkupil wrote:
I been researching my family from the Silesia region, regarding illegimate births I,m fimilar with tradition customs of the Silesian region which was affected by Prussian laws. During the 19thC Poland was partitioned by Prussia, Russia and Austria. Prussia was mostly Protestant Lutheran and Catholic and Russia was the Eastern rite Othox, Austria was mostly Catholic. My question is did each partitioned region treat this different, did each region have its own set of laws(civil) as the religion from the different regions handled this matter. Poland was made up of many different ethnic groups and religions during the 19thC Poland did not exist as a country during the 19C so how did this play a role in Polish history was it affected by Prussia, Russia Austria and the language which it recorded in. Silesian records were written in old german not sure about other areas. Could someone shed light on this subject


Although in 19th century Poland was partitioned, before that time for many more centuries it was a big country with people sharing many similar traditions and in majority speaking the same language. Even if they lived in different regions they, more or less, shared similar community habits shaped during hundreds of years. I don't think there were big differences in treating illegitimate children and especially their mothers in different partitions. They had really hard lives in their communities and not rarely, if they were brave enough, just escaped to different regions or to the other countries.

Please remember, that the Russian partition, especially today's central and eastern Poland, was in vast majority catholic. Russian invaders could force Polish people to follow Russian law, record vital records in Russian, but weren't able to convert Polish people to Orthodox church.

As for language in which records were written, in Prussian part it was old German as you wrote. In Russian part it was Polish until about 1863-1868 since when Russian forced priests to make records in the old Cyrillic Russian. In Galicia (Austrian part) it was Latin and sometimes Polish.
View user's profile
Send private message
Send e-mail
Lisa



Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Replies: 88

Back to top
Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:55 am      Post subject:
Reply with quote

My great-great-grandmother, who lived in Luslawice, near Tarnow, gave birth to my great-grandfather out of wedlock. She married shortly after my great-grandfather's birth, but not to his biological father. To this day the identity of my great-grandfather's biological father remains a mystery.

My great-great-grandmother lived in Luslawice all her life. She was never sent away, nor did she decide on her own to move away.

I have some questions:

How would my great-great-grandmother and great-grandfather have been treated by their fellow villagers? Would my great-great-grandmother's marriage have made her more "respectable" in the eyes of her fellow villagers?

Would the villagers look down upon the man my great-great-grandmother married? How would my great-great-grandmother and her husband have been treated as a couple within the village?

As always, thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Lisa
View user's profile
Send private message
Zenon
PolishOrigins Team Leader


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Replies: 1470
Location: Poland

Back to top
Post Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:04 am      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Lisa wrote:
How would my great-great-grandmother and great-grandfather have been treated by their fellow villagers?


If she stayed as a worker at the landowner house she was in some way accepted by the owner (most probable the father of the child) and because of that she was probably treated not so bad by the other villagers.

Lisa wrote:
Would my great-great-grandmother's marriage have made her more "respectable" in the eyes of her fellow villagers?


Yes because again, there was someone else who accepted her and her child.

Lisa wrote:
Would the villagers look down upon the man my great-great-grandmother married?


The main victims of this sharp practices, chicanery, were those who were usually least guilty - mother and child...

Lisa wrote:
How would my great-great-grandmother and her husband have been treated as a couple within the village?


Most probably without any big difference to the other members of the community.
View user's profile
Send private message
Send e-mail
Lisa



Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Replies: 88

Back to top
Post Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:46 am      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Thank you, Zenon, for your responses to my questions. You're very helpful.

It's difficult to find answers to events that occurred over 100 years ago, especially when no one back then would talk about it. Ultimately, there is little information to pass on to the descendants. The mystery surrounding my great-grandfather's paternity is probably something we'll never know. Still, we, his family, will persist in locating whatever information we can.

Lisa Very Happy
View user's profile
Send private message
Lisa



Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Replies: 88

Back to top
Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:17 am      Post subject:
Reply with quote

violin75 ~ Your story about your grandfather's illegitimate birth sounds a lot like my great-grandfather's story. Have you learned any more details? I'm intrigued!

Lisa Very Happy
View user's profile
Send private message
Bernadette



Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Replies: 12

Back to top
Post Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:52 pm      Post subject: Re: Illegitimate Children in Poland 19th century
Reply with quote

Lisa wrote:
I have two questions:

Was it common for unmarried mothers in Poland in the 19th century to keep their child after giving birth?

If the mother married after the birth of the child, but the marriage was not to the child's biological father, was it common for the child to continue to use his/her mother's maiden name as a surname? Or would the child then use his/her stepfather's surname?

Thanks!

Lisa Very Happy


This topic is a sad one for me. My Dad was exiled her in UK after WWII. We all know what a lot of Poles went through so you can imagine the state he was in when he was fished out of the Atlantic by my mother's brother. My uncle gave him a photo of my Mum and the address and asked my Dad to go and tell his Mother that he was OK - he was in the Navy and not allowed to say where he was going or what they were up to for obvious reasons. So that's how my Dad met my Mum. My grandmother sort of adopted him and he and Mum got married. Post war I don't think anyone could communicate in or out of Poland - it didn't exist apparently and I remember my Dad writing letters but never getting a reply. They were censored with blue ink so no-one could pass any information as to their whereabouts. My Mum decided to try to trace any of my Dad's family as he didn't know whether anyone had survived or not. One day he got a letter from his brother, and in the letter my Dad was told that he had a daughter, who had been born in 1939. He hadn't been aware that his girlfriend/wife was pregnant. And my Mum hadn't been aware that he had a girlfriend/wife before her. She didn't take the news very well at all and I think she was rather naive considering the wartime conditions. I could certainly understand anyone making hay while the sun shone! Also, he had no option but to start a new life in UK - the Poles who found themselves outside of Poland after the war simply had no country to go back to. They were in exile. Eventually he met his daughter in 1966 and they kept in touch for the rest of his life. So, whether illegitimate or not - who's to say? As far as I'm concerned every child has a father so no-one is ever illegitimate. Smile
View user's profile
Send private message
Shellie
PO Top Contributor & Patron


Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Replies: 975
Location: Atlanta, GA

Back to top
Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:37 am      Post subject:
Reply with quote

In the book Revolution and Evolution: 1848 in German-Jewish History by Werner Eugen Mosse (1981), Mosse discusses illegitimate births among Jews compared with Roman Catholics and other religions.

Although this won't answer your questions, it does provide some interesting information about illegitimate births.

You can read about it in a google book preview at the link below, starting on p.70.
The 2 tables below are on p.71

http://books.google.com/books/about/Revolution_and_Evolution.html?id=PxtFYP9wxgYC



Illegitimate births.png
 Description:
Click on image for larger view. From: Revolution and Evolution: 1848 in German-Jewish History by Werner Eugen Mosse (1981)
 Filesize:  46.93 KB
 Viewed:  3009 Time(s)

Illegitimate births.png


View user's profile
Send private message
Bugatti99



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Replies: 23

Back to top
Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:26 am      Post subject: Illegitimate birth, parents married....
Reply with quote

Hi there. I just signed up for this site. And I find the forum topics most interesting.

I was able to finally recover the original documents of my great grandfather born in the Sadkow region in 1894. The family folklore was that he was not really of the bloodline that he claimed he was or used his entire life. The birth record was translated for me yesterday and it surprisingly fell in line with the family story.. at this point I am omitting surnames:

The baby was brought to the church by a midwife and it stated the boys name and also the mothers name Margaret- stating specifically the father was "unknown". Margaret is married to Frank at this time. They were married in 1890 when she was 30 and Frank was 18 years old, with both of HIS parent deceased.

In 1892 they had one son together as the birth record clearly states- the document is written is Russian and Polish. In 1894 MARGARET has my great grandfather (who is raised with the name of the husband and the surname we know and use).

There is a 4 year gap and then Frank and Margaret have another child in 1898 and their last one I believe in 1900.

By 1919 my great grandfather is in this country using a different surname and his children are born with this different surname on their birth records, but then it is switched back to the name he originally used in Poland of his step father Frank. I think this is a different issue as he was probably trying anything he could to avoid war in Poland. The family story is his well now half brother died in the war and so my great grandfather used his "papers" to get out of Poland and come to the US.

I am going in too many directions... Does anyone have any idea, how or why my great grandfather would have been illegitimate while married to another man, the man keeps the child as his and they continue to have a family after 4 year lull? I fear the answer will be the harshness of war during this time, but really do not want to make assumptions.
View user's profile
Send private message
dnowicki
PO Top Contributor


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 1752
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

Back to top
Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:15 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Bugatti99,

The answer to the question of why your great grandfather's birth record lists his mother's name with the father listed as "unknown" may reside in the person who brought him to church and provided the information about his birth---the midwife. She was there at his birth, but may not have known much about his parents and thus did not provide the father's name. Does the record state that she was his baptismal sponsor (Godmother) or was another person or persons listed as fulfilling that role? It was the usual practice for the baby's father to go to the church to provide the information. If he couldn't do that, often another relative or resident of the village or, as in your case, the midwife was the informant. In his case the midwife would be considered a primary source of information about the facts of the birth, but she is a secondary source of information for details about the parents.

Marriage and the legitimacy of offspring has a long and somewhat complex history in relation to the Catholic Church and other Christian Churches since marriage as an institution predated Christianity. As an undergrad in the Jesuit University I attended an interesting treatment of marriage from a social and religious perspective which was required reading in one course was "Marriage: Human Reality and Saving Mystery" by the late Dutch Dominican theologian Edward Schillebeeckx. In this book he traces how over the course of centuries marriage, which had been a familial and civil institution, came into the domain of the Christian Church. Legitimacy obviously had civil ramifications in regard to the inheritance of property and religious ramifications for the stability of the family. As time went on rules about marriage developed in both the civil and the religious spheres. In the Russian Partition these spheres overlapped since the priests had a religious role in the blessing of marriages and the baptism of children (and in keeping records of those religious events) but they also wore another hat in that they acted as officials of the state in their capacity of keeping civil vital records.

As far as determining and acknowledging paternity (outside of modern paternity tests) nothing is really new and nothing is really old. For married couples the husband is presumed to be the father. The same is true of a child born to his widow within the usual 9 months after his death. However, in the case of unmarried parents, paternity had to be demonstrated by the father personally acknowledging his child. It was really no different from what goes on today---witness the popularity of the day time talk shows where a man denies that he is the father until confronted with paternity test results.
In the case of your great grandfather the presumption should have been that he was legitimate unless this parents had not lived together for longer than the nine months. This would have been possible for example if he had been conscripted into the army and had not been back for an extended period. The other possibility of course was that the priest was new to the parish and the midwife didn't give him the proper information.

As a side note on the question of paternity, there is a Medieval Latin poem found in a collection of student poetry called "The Cambridge Songs" which presents an interesting take on legitimacy. In the poem a merchant leaves on a long trading journey and about a year after his departure his wife becomes pregnant by her lover. When the merchant returns. his wife welcomes him home with a child too young to possibly be his. When he asks her about the child, she tells him that she went hiking in the Alps, became thirsty and ate some snow to quench her thirst and as a result became pregnant. He says nothing, stays home for several years and then sets out on a trading voyage by sea and takes the child along. At Constantinople he sells the child and after several years returns home. When his wife asks about the child he tells her that they were shipwrecked and everyone made it to shore on an island but unfortunately the sun was so hot that it melted the child which the snow had conceived. Such a paternity test!

So much for the digression into Medieval poetry. Hope the more serious stuff may shed some light on the possibilities.

Dave
View user's profile
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PolishOrigins Forum Index -> Origins of surnames All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB ©

© 2019 COPYRIGHTS BY THE OWNER OF POLISHORIGINS.COM