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Bugatti99



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:57 pm      Post subject:
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Dave,

Thank you so much for the reply. Given the nature of this record I omitted only one surname from it with a "......" so maybe in your experience you can see if it pertains to the post you wrote. The rest of the folklore says that when my great great grandpa came home from war, my great grandfather, baby Ignacy was there. Given he was 21-22 years old at the time, she was 34, I wonder if it is just as you said.

Birth record
Ignacy

Sadkov's tablet of Ignacy

The event took place in Zbilutna village on January 27 day, 1894 at 12 PM.

50 year old peasant woman named Marjana Petrghich', who is the midwife residing in Sadkov village, paid a personal visit in presence of peasants Andrey Vichorny being 40 years of age and Jan Oshipala being 37 years of age residing in Sadkov village as well.

Marjana came with the baby boy and claimed that he was born in Sadkov village on January 26 day of that year at 8 AM. She stated that the boy was born by 35 years old Malgorghata ....... registered under that name in the tablet and the baby's father is unknown. This baby has to be named Ignacy once the Holy Christening is performed by Kcendom Jan Cinkovsky who carries out the duties of church warden (bishop), and the duties of the boy's godparents from now on should be assigned to Andrey Vichorny and Tisjada Sofja.

Here, without further ado, the person putting this text into table certifies that this document was read out loud for the people who are unable to read it and signed by them as well once it was read.

Signed by Kcendom Jan Cinkovsky

So 2 years prior there is a baby Vincent born to Frank and Margaret, then Ignacy with father unknown, then 4 years later 2 other children are born to Frank and Margaret.

The godparent Tisjada Sofjia appears in his older brother Vincent as well.

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me about this.
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PaniKohani



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:11 pm      Post subject:
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Yet another component of this topic, are cases (not so uncommon) wherein, women working on manors (as serfs) of Jewish owners had children by said owner. This may have occurred in places wherever such manors existed in Poland in the 1800s and earlier, when such form of 'serfdom' was still in effect (e.g. Rszesow).
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Bugatti99



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:54 pm      Post subject: Illegitimate?
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I am still working on the illegitimate child theory of my great grandfather and I have some other ideas. The act in question is this:

Sadkov's tablet of Ignacy

The event took place in Zbilutna village on January 27 day, 1894 at 12 PM.

50 year old peasant woman named Marjana Petrghich', who is the midwife residing in Sadkov village, paid a personal visit in presence of peasants Andrey Vichorny being 40 years of age and Jan Oshipala being 37 years of age residing in Sadkov village as well.

Marjana came with the baby boy and claimed that he was born in Sadkov village on January 26 day of that year at 8 AM. She stated that the boy was born by 35 years old Malgorghata ....... registered under that name in the tablet and the baby's father is unknown. This baby has to be named Ignacy once the Holy Christening is performed by Kcendom Jan Cinkovsky who carries out the duties of church warden (bishop), and the duties of the boy's godparents from now on should be assigned to Andrey Vichorny and Tisjada Sofja.

Here, without further ado, the person putting this text into table certifies that this document was read out loud for the people who are unable to read it and signed by them as well once it was read.

Signed by Kcendom Jan Cinkovsky


The family assumption (and this is "myth" as we never saw this document before) was that my great grandpa was illegitimate. This was supported by the family I found in Sbeltuka that I never talked to before. But my fear is that this document (or some kind of knowledge of it, is what spawned the rumors and there is no substantial facts. Once I found this act, the "father is unknown" of course really solidified this. But private messages with this site, and then comments make me wonder and sadly I am still looking for certainty. But what I have realized, is that Ignacy had an older brother born 3 years earlier-when I look a this earlier act, I see that the father Frank is present which is different, but also that one witness is the same in both acts, the godmother is the same in both acts for the two children. Would this be acceptable in an illegitimate birth?
The mother Margaret has two other children from another marriage at this time (born in 1884 and 1886). So in total she has 3 children 2 marriages. Two from a widowed husband, and then now her new husband. Ignacy would be her 4th child.

When they marry in 1890, she is 30, he is 18 (his parents are dead). So when their first son is born, he is at home and is 19 years old. When Ignacy is born he would be about 21 or 22 year old. When would have he gone to the military? I believe he went early 1893. Ignacy was born in 1894, January. When he returns, not sure when, there are 2 other children they have together in 1898 and 1900. In the case of the first born and the 3rd and 4th born , there is one man who remains as a witness in all three baptisms who is not present in the 2nd child, Ignacy (above). I think this is the brother in law of Frank. In all cases, the priest is the same for each.

So, while I cannot examine other church records from Zbelutka at this time, I am trying to see if there is ANY compelling evidence here to believe the act above would describe an illegitimate child. I am intrigued that the priest would not have known who the father is as he did also marry the two in 1890. Would this have been an act the priest wrote or was it a scribe and there was no real referee at this time to say "wait I know the dad Frank, he is in the army now" kind of thing. But another thought, even though she is in the same church for the baptism, if Frank is indeed gone to the military at this time, would she live alone with all of these children and one on the way? Maybe this has bearing on the witnesses used etc.. and even the midwife being familiar with the family?

Sorry for such a long post. I would not want to read too much into a document but as I grew up hearing this and then seeing the document, it is something and the only thing I can analyze.

Any ideas thoughts are appreciated. thanks!
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Shellie
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:16 pm      Post subject:
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I have come across several births labeled illegitimate and the mother is described in the church record as the widow of (name of husband). I did not have death records to determine when the husband died, so I can not comment on whether these are actually births where the widow had a child more than 9 months after the death of the husband, indicating that the father was not the dead husband....

Has anyone else seen this while viewing birth records?
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dkupil



Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:40 pm      Post subject: illegitimate birth record
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I seen on my great grand father,s birth record Catholic church in Opole province 1853. He listed as illegitimate no mention to father his mother is is also listed by occupation. the church record is written in German. My G Grandfather took the last name of his mother. I was told the reason being was that the father was not catholic

dkupil
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sheep17
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:27 pm      Post subject: illegitimate birth record
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In the records that I have read, I have found this --

Where the parents are of different religions --
If the parents were married, and the father was not Catholic, his name was written down and his religion is also stated. Since the priests were the legal record keepers, they wouldn't be allowed to ignore a legitimate marriage.

Where the mother was unmarried, the father is listed as unknown, or the space was left blank, and the child of an unmarried mother took the mother's family name.

Leonore
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heleninnj
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Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:32 pm      Post subject: Unmarried mothers
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I am a new member researching my grandfather. I have his original birth certificate from Stanislawow. It states that his mother was unmarried; no father's name is listed. When he emigrated to the US he used a last name different from his mother's. This was a complete surprise to me. I am wondering how common this was and if perhaps he took his biological father's last name or was adopted.
Thank you.
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:18 pm      Post subject: Re: Unmarried mothers
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heleninnj wrote:
I am a new member researching my grandfather. I have his original birth certificate from Stanislawow. It states that his mother was unmarried; no father's name is listed. When he emigrated to the US he used a last name different from his mother's. This was a complete surprise to me. I am wondering how common this was and if perhaps he took his biological father's last name or was adopted.
Thank you.


Hi & Welcome!

There are a number of possible explanations for why he used a surname other than that of his mother. A lot depends on when and from which Partition he emigrated. There are quite a few places named Stanislawow---most, but not all were in the Russian Partition. If he immigrated prior to WWI and if he was from Russian Poland, there could be a good chance that he was using another persons documents to leave Poland. In order to leave Russian Poland legally at that time a man of military age needed papers demonstrating that he had fulfilled his military service. Men who wanted out but had not completed military service either crossed the border illegally or crossed at an official checkpoint using someone's papers who had completed military service. Although it is possible that he was adopted, formal adoptions were not very common. He may have used his biological father's surname, but again it is somewhat unlikely. His parents may have married after his birth or his mother may have married someone who was not his biological father, but again it is somewhat unlikely that he would have "officially" assumed the husband's surname.

When a mother is recorded as unmarried and the father's name is not recorded it generally means that the biological father did not officially acknowledge paternity. A possible clue about what was going on at the time of his immigration may be found in the surname he used here in the US. Since you say that it was a surprise to find a different surname on his arrival documentation, would it be fair to assume that during his life here he used the surname of his mother? If that is the case, it would increase the probability that he was using another person's papers---something that was not unusual and certainly nothing with which to find fault.

Hope this gives some direction to possible explanations.

Wishing you success in your research,

Dave
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heleninnj
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Post Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:37 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you, Dave, for the insight and quick response. His year of birth was 1884 and his immigration is noted as 1888 (US Census records) which would make him only 4. I have been unable to locate any documentation of his passage to the US. His mother is noted as Pelke Harz and I have no further info. on her except that at the time of birth her parents were deceased (again noted on his birth certificate). I see many of the previous posts refer those of the Catholic faith. My family was all Jewish - different rules for recording birth information, perhaps? As of now, I am stumped.
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:40 am      Post subject:
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Helen,

We have seen here on PO various Jewish records too. In some records with baby stated illegitimate, the local rabbis knew who was the father, and was searching him, then complementing record, sometimes years later, with father statement something along this “I do recognize, and do it with mother’s agreement, that I am the father of X”.
I have also seen here on PO one or two records of Catholic families moving between Poland and USA, that a younger sibling of a father of large family was recorded as his child (mathematically valid), to get to the USA.
It could be that when the mother of your 4 years old grandfather was emigrating to the USA, she was advised that the chances to get in were bigger if the child were traveling with his father or someone pretending to be his father, that with single mother – this kind of speculations, in addition to who was that name’s holder.

Best,
Elzbieta
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heleninnj
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:46 am      Post subject:
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This is fascinating and I thank you for taking the time to respond. There is no one still alive of my father's generation who might have any helpful knowledge.

Best,
Helen
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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:33 pm      Post subject:
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heleninnj wrote:
This is fascinating and I thank you for taking the time to respond. There is no one still alive of my father's generation who might have any helpful knowledge.

Best,
Helen


Helen,

It's true no one is still alive, but if only possible, I am sure rabbis from Stanislawow have been preserving their records. I am not saying you can find an answer, but looking for the place where the mother of your grandfather was living, the synagogue she was attached, records of birth and circumcision from 1884, it might give you some additional lights. Maybe you could find somewhere the puzzling name?

I wish you success.
Elzbieta
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Monica



Joined: 06 Mar 2011
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Post Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:34 pm      Post subject: Illigitimate children
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Hi,
My great great grandmother was born in 1842 in northern Poland. Through research, I have found that all the baptismal records of her children state that "She is an unmarried woman" and there are no fathers listed. When all her children were in their 20's, she married for the 1st time. On that civil marriage record, it states that she is a "working woman". Does anyone know what might be meant by a "working" woman? What makes it even more confusing, is that when her daughter, my great grandmother, came to America and got married, it stated a fathers name. I am not sure if she put a name on the document in America because of shame or if it really was the name of her father. I have searched the records in the area, and the surname she gave does exist.
The man she came over with and married here also came from a mother where there was no father listed on his baptismal record. Again, he also gave a fathers name on the marriage certificate in America.
Any help would be appreciated,
Monica
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:06 pm      Post subject: Re: Illigitimate children
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Monica wrote:
Hi,
My great great grandmother was born in 1842 in northern Poland. Through research, I have found that all the baptismal records of her children state that "She is an unmarried woman" and there are no fathers listed. When all her children were in their 20's, she married for the 1st time. On that civil marriage record, it states that she is a "working woman". Does anyone know what might be meant by a "working" woman? What makes it even more confusing, is that when her daughter, my great grandmother, came to America and got married, it stated a fathers name. I am not sure if she put a name on the document in America because of shame or if it really was the name of her father. I have searched the records in the area, and the surname she gave does exist.
The man she came over with and married here also came from a mother where there was no father listed on his baptismal record. Again, he also gave a fathers name on the marriage certificate in America.
Any help would be appreciated,
Monica


Hi Monica,

What was the word in the record? If it was wyrobnica (Polish) or operaria or mercenaria (Latin) it just means that she worked for wages.

Dave
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RomanTimes



Joined: 02 Dec 2018
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Post Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:07 pm      Post subject: Illegitimate Children
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I was surprised to see so many posts related to illegitimate children and learned a lot from reading them. I just recently learned that my great-grandmother's 1st child was illegitimate. He carried her name. She married when the child was 5. I don't know how long the child kept her surname; he used her husband's surname after coming the US.

MY QUESTION: What types of birth records in Poland listed the father's name, OR in cases of illegitimate children was the father often not named? What about baptism records; would that list the father's name?
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