Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:51 pm
Post subject: Bieżuń Mazowieckie Research
Is anyone here familiar with Bieżuń, Mazowieckie research? I have several family lines from that area (surnames: Kosin, Przybułek, Peściński, Skoniecki, Rochowicz, Abramski) and have run into some challenges tracing them. If anyone has done research in that area – or closeby, Lutocin, Chamsk, Zuromin – and has advice or help, please let me know! Thank you.
For example, my relative, Marianna Peścińska (born Abramska, 1 November 1806; married Pawel Peściński 7 February 1825) seems to have no death record. Her husband dies 26 September 1884 and she is still living. And yet, no death record in any subsequent years -- and I checked surrounding parishes.
And again, another relative with no death record: Anna Justyna Kosin (born Skonieczna, 10 October 1812; married Franciszek Kosin 14 November 1836). She is alive in the 31 January 1881 record of her son Teodor's marriage and in 1884 her husband Franciszek marries again. So, clearly, she died between 1881 and 1884 -- but no death record.
These are just two of several "mysteries" -- I have used Geneteka, GenBaza, Szukajwarchiwach, Family Search, ordered Bieżuń microfilms and looked through many many records. Just wondering if there are other methods, other ideas.
Thank you again![size=12][/size]
_________________ Meredith Loncaric
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Bieżuń Mazowieckie Research
Meredith wrote: | Is anyone here familiar with Bieżuń, Mazowieckie research? I have several family lines from that area (surnames: Kosin, Przybułek, Peściński, Skoniecki, Rochowicz, Abramski) and have run into some challenges tracing them. If anyone has done research in that area – or closeby, Lutocin, Chamsk, Zuromin – and has advice or help, please let me know! Thank you.
For example, my relative, Marianna Peścińska (born Abramska, 1 November 1806; married Pawel Peściński 7 February 1825) seems to have no death record. Her husband dies 26 September 1884 and she is still living. And yet, no death record in any subsequent years -- and I checked surrounding parishes.
And again, another relative with no death record: Anna Justyna Kosin (born Skonieczna, 10 October 1812; married Franciszek Kosin 14 November 1836). She is alive in the 31 January 1881 record of her son Teodor's marriage and in 1884 her husband Franciszek marries again. So, clearly, she died between 1881 and 1884 -- but no death record.
These are just two of several "mysteries" -- I have used Geneteka, GenBaza, Szukajwarchiwach, Family Search, ordered Bieżuń microfilms and looked through many many records. Just wondering if there are other methods, other ideas.
Thank you again![size=12][/size] |
Meredith,
Are you aware of this database? http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/pow-377
Gilberto
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:22 pm
Post subject:
Yes, Gilberto, I am, and have searched through those records as well. GenBaza has some alegata that Genealodzy's Metryki does not have, but both are fairly similar.
Meredith
_________________ Meredith Loncaric
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:46 pm
Post subject:
Hi Meredith,
I found a death record for Marianna Kosin in 1882 using the Metryki database Gilberto suggested. It is attached. I also found a death record for Franciszek Kosin in the same year - 1882 that was reported by another Franciszek Kosin (also attached). There are obviously 2 people with the name Franciszek Kosin (perhaps father and son?). So now to discover which Franciszek died in 1882 and which one married in 1884. You should be able to tell once you get these records translated.
Best,
Cynthia
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Marianna Kosin Death 1882 record # 63 |
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marcelproustPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:03 am
Post subject:
mcdonald0517 wrote: | Hi Meredith,
I found a death record for Marianna Kosin in 1882 using the Metryki database Gilberto suggested. It is attached. I also found a death record for Franciszek Kosin in the same year - 1882 that was reported by another Franciszek Kosin (also attached). There are obviously 2 people with the name Franciszek Kosin (perhaps father and son?). So now to discover which Franciszek died in 1882 and which one married in 1884. You should be able to tell once you get these records translated.
Best,
Cynthia |
I live very close to Bieżuń.
128
Bieżuń
It took place in Bieżuń on 23 August (4 September) 1882 at 8 a.m. Appeared Franciszek Kosin, slaughterer, 46 years old and Walenty Witkowski, farmer, 45 years old, both living in Bieżuń and said that on 21 August (2 September) 1882 at 8 a.m. died Franciszek Kosin, 1 years old, living with his parents in Bieżuń, born in Bieżuń, son of Franciszek Kosin and Teofila Kosin.
After eye belief about Franciszek Kosin death act was read to present, all illiterate,signed by the priest, administrator of Bieżuń parish Józef Smoleński.
63
Bieżuń
It took place in Bieżuń on 2 (14 ) April 1882 at 9 a.m. Appeared Antoni Peścieński, shoemaker, 55 years old and Marcin Mrozek, blacksmith, 40 years old, both living in Bieżuń and said that on 31 March (12 April) 1882 at 10 a.m. died Maryanna Kosin maiden name Graczyk, fsrmer, widow after deceased Michał, living in Bieżuń, 75 years old, born in Jonne, daughter of deceased parents, spouses Graczyk, names unknown.
After eye belief about Maryanna Kosin death act was read to present, all illiterate, signed by the priest Józef Smoleński administrator of Bieżuń parish.
_________________ My translations are voluntary, but they take a lot of time and effort, so whenever you want to send money it will be a very nice "Thank you" gift to me.
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:24 am
Post subject:
Hello!
Cynthia -- neither of those records pertain to "my" Franciszek or "my" Marianna; I have seen and translated both of them before. I have used Geneteka and Genealodzy's Metryki pretty thoroughly .Thank you for looking, however.
And Marcel, thank you for taking the time to translate these! I am sorry I did not get online sooner to save you the trouble. As you can see, the Franciszek is only an infant and clearly not my elderly Franciszek. And, also, you can see that the "Marianna Kosin" -- I am looking for Anna Justyna Kosin -- who passed away in 1882 is the widow of Michal, not the widow of Franciszek, and is also of the Graczyk family, not the Skoniecki family and does not have the correct first name.
Thank you all for looking...These death records seem impossible to find.
_________________ Meredith Loncaric
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marcelproustPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:11 am
Post subject:
Meredith wrote: | Hello!
Cynthia -- neither of those records pertain to "my" Franciszek or "my" Marianna; I have seen and translated both of them before. I have used Geneteka and Genealodzy's Metryki pretty thoroughly .Thank you for looking, however.
And Marcel, thank you for taking the time to translate these! I am sorry I did not get online sooner to save you the trouble. As you can see, the Franciszek is only an infant and clearly not my elderly Franciszek. And, also, you can see that the "Marianna Kosin" -- I am looking for Anna Justyna Kosin -- who passed away in 1882 is the widow of Michal, not the widow of Franciszek, and is also of the Graczyk family, not the Skoniecki family and does not have the correct first name.
Thank you all for looking...These death records seem impossible to find. |
Maybe those people You are looking for died in different parish? Maybe Marianna married someone after her husband died and she changed her surname and maybe she died in different place.
In 1900 died Antoni Peściński, son of Marianna maiden name Abramska and Paweł Peściński but the death record is not available online. There is only index of deceased for this year. If we could take a look at this death record we could know somethind about Marianna.
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:55 am
Post subject:
Hi Marcel,
Yes, I considered that perhaps Marianna married after Pawel died in 1884, so I checked the marriage records for a reasonable time period (up to about 1900; Marianna would have been 94 in 1900). Her son, Antoni, died in 1900, as you know (yes, only index, but I can check again on GenBaza to see if the actual record may be there -- I do not think so). I have not found a 2nd marriage for Marianna...
And yes, I have checked for these death records in Lutocin, Chamsk, Zuromin, i Radzanow, as well as Gradzanowo and Rosciszewo. I believe I also tried Sierpc. Some of the neighboring parishes do not have full records for the timeframe, but most do. I am not great with the Russian, but know enough to identify the surnames.
They both seem to disappear! Tracing Anna Justyna Kosin, born Skonieczna/Skoniecka, has been very hard. Her parents, Gotfryd and Anna Szarlotta Skoniecki, appear in Biezun in 1812, in Anna Justyna's baptism record; they do not exist in Biezun before that, and I have never found them. I was hoping that Anna Justyna Kosin's death record might provide clues to her family origins...
Thank you, Marcel, for discussing this with me. It has been a longtime mystery
_________________ Meredith Loncaric
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:17 am
Post subject:
Meredith,
I have another suggestion. I encountered something similar when researching my family - all of a sudden they seem to disappear because I could not find their death records. On a gut feeling, I then checked the Evangelical Parish books even though up to that point all of the records were Roman Catholic. - bingo! I found them.
The reason I suggest you check the Evangelical books is because Anna Justyny's fathers name was Gotfryd which is German. Also, Biezun was close to the Prussian/Russian border. Anna's family may have been German colonists, in which case, they were Evangelicals living in Roman Catholic areas. In such situations, their birth and marriage records would have been recorded by the Catholic Parish if there was not an Evangelical church nearby. However, Anna Justyny may have wanted her death recorded in the Evangelical church. That was the case with my family. My Great Grandparents were baptized Evangelical, moved to Russian partition, their children were married in Catholic churches to Roman Catholics, but when my Grandparents died, their deaths were recorded in the nearest Evangelical church which was some miles away. That is why I couldn't find them - I was looking in Roman Catholic parishes. It took me years to find them.
I know it is a long shot, but you seem to have done everything else - why not give it a try?
Wishing you success,
Cynthia
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:25 am
Post subject:
Cynthia --
Good thinking! My ideas had wondered along those lines, too, to a point. Yes: "Gotfryd" and even "Szarlotta" (Charlotte) sounded to me more German than Polish.
If I can find them, I will check Evangelical/Protestant records as well.
But here's the HOWEVER part: in the early records (early 1800s, up to maybe 1820), Catholic, Evangelical and Jewish records were all registered in the same book. So I viewed all those records at the same time. Consistently, every single record, the Gotfryd and Anna Szarlotta Skoniecki family were recorded in the Catholic entries: for baptisms of their children and for deaths of their children, as well as marriages (for example, of their daughter, Anna Justyna, in 1836). ALL Catholic, when there was clear opportunity to belong to and be registered in an Evangelical church.
So it seems pretty certain they were Catholic and led Catholic worship lives in Biezun. Anna Justyna was baptized and married Catholic; it would seem odd for her to suddenly convert to Evangelicalism right before death. Now, were Gotfryd and Anna Szarlotta, her parents, born Catholic? Who knows? All I know is they baptized and buried and married their children Catholic, even though there was a Protestant church right there for them.
My guess is that the Skoniecki family came from somewhere else prior to 1812, when Anna Justyna was born in Biezun. But where???
Thanks for your suggestion and your experience. I will see if I can find Protestant records for the 1880s, just in case.
Meredith
_________________ Meredith Loncaric
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marcelproustPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:52 pm
Post subject:
Meredith wrote: | Cynthia --
Good thinking! My ideas had wondered along those lines, too, to a point. Yes: "Gotfryd" and even "Szarlotta" (Charlotte) sounded to me more German than Polish.
If I can find them, I will check Evangelical/Protestant records as well.
But here's the HOWEVER part: in the early records (early 1800s, up to maybe 1820), Catholic, Evangelical and Jewish records were all registered in the same book. So I viewed all those records at the same time. Consistently, every single record, the Gotfryd and Anna Szarlotta Skoniecki family were recorded in the Catholic entries: for baptisms of their children and for deaths of their children, as well as marriages (for example, of their daughter, Anna Justyna, in 1836). ALL Catholic, when there was clear opportunity to belong to and be registered in an Evangelical church.
So it seems pretty certain they were Catholic and led Catholic worship lives in Biezun. Anna Justyna was baptized and married Catholic; it would seem odd for her to suddenly convert to Evangelicalism right before death. Now, were Gotfryd and Anna Szarlotta, her parents, born Catholic? Who knows? All I know is they baptized and buried and married their children Catholic, even though there was a Protestant church right there for them.
My guess is that the Skoniecki family came from somewhere else prior to 1812, when Anna Justyna was born in Biezun. But where???
Thanks for your suggestion and your experience. I will see if I can find Protestant records for the 1880s, just in case.
Meredith |
One of the nearest Evangelic church was in Sierpc. i also think the good idea would be to check the census records from Bieżuń. I dont know if they exist but i will ask the State Archives about it.
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:08 pm
Post subject:
Thank you, Marcel -- and I realize that marcelproust (as in the author) may just be your User Name and not your actual name; I am sorry if I have been calling you incorrectly!
I have never seen census records from Bieżuń...that would be wonderful if you have time to check if they exist; thank you.
I have tried to trace the Skoniecki family through the godparents/witnesses at Gotfryd i Anna Szarlotta's children's baptisms. Most of the men were clothiers (as Gotfryd was) or tailors. And most of the men were from the Bieżuń area -- I found, for example, several who married there 1800-1812. But no marriage for Gotfryd in Bieżuń.
I have also checked the UMZ index for the parish 1756-1808: no Gotfryd born there (and no Anna Szarlotta, either; her maiden name is Gild or Gield, as she is recorded "Anna Szarlotta z Gildow" in the acts). I am posting the 1812 baptism record of Anna Justyna, the first sign of the SKoniecki family in Bieżuń. I am also posting Anna Justyna's 1836 marriage, just to see. Perhaps I am missing some detail!
Thank you again for discussing this with me,
M
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_________________ Meredith Loncaric
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marcelproustPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:40 pm
Post subject:
Meredith wrote: | Thank you, Marcel -- and I realize that marcelproust (as in the author) may just be your User Name and not your actual name; I am sorry if I have been calling you incorrectly!
I have never seen census records from Bieżuń...that would be wonderful if you have time to check if they exist; thank you.
I have tried to trace the Skoniecki family through the godparents/witnesses at Gotfryd i Anna Szarlotta's children's baptisms. Most of the men were clothiers (as Gotfryd was) or tailors. And most of the men were from the Bieżuń area -- I found, for example, several who married there 1800-1812. But no marriage for Gotfryd in Bieżuń.
I have also checked the UMZ index for the parish 1756-1808: no Gotfryd born there (and no Anna Szarlotta, either; her maiden name is Gild or Gield, as she is recorded "Anna Szarlotta z Gildow" in the acts). I am posting the 1812 baptism record of Anna Justyna, the first sign of the SKoniecki family in Bieżuń. I am also posting Anna Justyna's 1836 marriage, just to see. Perhaps I am missing some detail!
Thank you again for discussing this with me,
M |
My real name is Karol, Marcel is my nickname. I just read that Bieżuń evangelics belonged to Rypin evangelic parish.
_________________ My translations are voluntary, but they take a lot of time and effort, so whenever you want to send money it will be a very nice "Thank you" gift to me.
THANK YOU
PAYPAL: [email protected]
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:19 pm
Post subject:
Thank you, Karol, and nice to meet you!
I do not believe that Anna Justyna is buried and recorded in Rypin books, but perhaps the earlier Skoniecki family came from that area. It is worth something to check, if I can. Gotfryd, based on his age from his children's baptism records, was born circa 1782 and his wife was born circa 1787.
They are a mystery
Meredith
_________________ Meredith Loncaric
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marcelproustPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:53 am
Post subject:
Meredith wrote: | Thank you, Karol, and nice to meet you!
I do not believe that Anna Justyna is buried and recorded in Rypin books, but perhaps the earlier Skoniecki family came from that area. It is worth something to check, if I can. Gotfryd, based on his age from his children's baptism records, was born circa 1782 and his wife was born circa 1787.
They are a mystery
Meredith |
Hello,
i just spoke with the Płock State Archives worker and he asked me to write email and ask about the census records from Bieżuń. Usually they answer in one or two weeks. So we have to wait patiently for the answer.
_________________ My translations are voluntary, but they take a lot of time and effort, so whenever you want to send money it will be a very nice "Thank you" gift to me.
THANK YOU
PAYPAL: [email protected]
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