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JGwizdowski
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Joined: 26 Feb 2016
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:39 pm      Post subject: Need help reading priest's handwriting
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For some time now I have been entertaining the possibility that my grandfather, born in Gwizdow in 1880, upon leaving Poland assumed the name of Gwizdowski. In 20 years of searching I have not been able to locate a single record in the area of Gwizdow bearing the Gwizdowski name.

His brother Jan, born in Jan 1883, also was known as Gwizdowski. Their parents are known as Antoni and Agnes.

The attached record shows (I think) Joannes. Would Jan be the Polish version of this name? I also think the parents names shown are Antonius, and Agnes. I just can't make out much more than this.

I came across this today and have been trying every digital enhancement I know to make the penned writing more legible. My eyes are now crossed and I'm hoping someone used to this thick-ink penmanship might take a stab.

Thank you!
Joe



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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:01 am      Post subject: Re: Need help reading priest's handwriting
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JGwizdowski wrote:
For some time now I have been entertaining the possibility that my grandfather, born in Gwizdow in 1880, upon leaving Poland assumed the name of Gwizdowski. In 20 years of searching I have not been able to locate a single record in the area of Gwizdow bearing the Gwizdowski name.

His brother Jan, born in Jan 1883, also was known as Gwizdowski. Their parents are known as Antoni and Agnes.

The attached record shows (I think) Joannes. Would Jan be the Polish version of this name? I also think the parents names shown are Antonius, and Agnes. I just can't make out much more than this.

I came across this today and have been trying every digital enhancement I know to make the penned writing more legible. My eyes are now crossed and I'm hoping someone used to this thick-ink penmanship might take a stab.

Thank you!
Joe


Hi Joe,

The entry is a typical birth & baptism record in Latin from Galicia. Yes, Joannes is Jan in Polish. I'm able to read most of the handwriting and here is an English translation of the record:
Date of Birth & Bapt.: January 4, 1883
Child: Jan
The usual checks in the columns for Catholic, male, & legitimate
Father: Antoni Brdzast/b(?), a farmer, the son of Michał and of Agata (nee) Lizak
Mother: Agnieszka, the daughter of Wawrzyniec Zucha and of Maria (nee) Mączka
Sponsors: Michał (can't see surname), a farmer & Katarzyna, the wife of Wojciech(?) Zucha

I can't make out all the letters in the father's surname but that is my guess. The given name of the male sponsor is very dark, but Adalbertus/Wojciech is my best reading. The scribe didn't make reading the letters any easier by lack of consistency in letter formation (e.g. the upper case Z in the surname of Wawrzyniec vs. the upper case Z in the married surname of the female sponsor aka godmother.

Your theory that the surname Gwizdowski may have been adopted after emigration based on the name of the ancestral village may very well be correct.

Attached is a list of Latin given names with their Polish & English versions which I've posted a few times in the Latin records translations section. It is not exhaustive but lists given names I've encountered over the years---especially in the years of doing translations. Perhaps you may find it useful in your research.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave



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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:20 pm      Post subject:
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Dave...great insight and I appreciate your input and assistance very much! So now, the plot twists!

Thank you VERY much!
Joe

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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:33 pm      Post subject: How we came to be known as Gwizdowski
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Yesterday I found a record that, for all practical purposes could be my grandfather's brother Jan's birth record. The town of Gwizdow is correct, the birth date in 1883 was right, the mother and father's first names are right, but the surnames are not even close.

Just now I found a record that, for all practical purposes could be my grandfather's birth record. The town of Gwizdow is correct, the birth date in 1880 is right, the mother and father's first names are right, but the surnames are not even close.

As Sherlock Holmes once said: "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

As best I can make out, the father's name on the attached is Antonius Bzdzinck. I have looked up the root in William Hoffman's book "Polish Surnames: Origins and Meanings" and, if this is correct, I can understand why my grandfather - who was trained as an architect in Lemberg, chose to adopt the name of the town of his birth!

I would greatly appreciate translation of the attached record. While I can make out most of it, there are some items I'm not sure of, such as the writing under the record number and date, and the writing under the columns for religion, sex, and legitimacy.

Many thanks for your help! While I was somewhat expecting this, I am still a bit stunned by this revelation!

Joe



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:01 pm      Post subject: Re: How we came to be known as Gwizdowski
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JGwizdowski wrote:
Yesterday I found a record that, for all practical purposes could be my grandfather's brother Jan's birth record. The town of Gwizdow is correct, the birth date in 1883 was right, the mother and father's first names are right, but the surnames are not even close.

Just now I found a record that, for all practical purposes could be my grandfather's birth record. The town of Gwizdow is correct, the birth date in 1880 is right, the mother and father's first names are right, but the surnames are not even close.

As Sherlock Holmes once said: "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

As best I can make out, the father's name on the attached is Antonius Bzdzinck. I have looked up the root in William Hoffman's book "Polish Surnames: Origins and Meanings" and, if this is correct, I can understand why my grandfather - who was trained as an architect in Lemberg, chose to adopt the name of the town of his birth!

I would greatly appreciate translation of the attached record. While I can make out most of it, there are some items I'm not sure of, such as the writing under the record number and date, and the writing under the columns for religion, sex, and legitimacy.

Many thanks for your help! While I was somewhat expecting this, I am still a bit stunned by this revelation!

Joe


Hi Joe,

This record clarifies the spelling of Antoni's surname. It is Bzdziuch, which is found in Hoffman's book. The writing that you ask about is of minimal import. Under columns 1 & 2 the full Latin is "baptisavit qui supra" which means "The one who is above baptized (him). The other entry reads in full: "Obstetrix Catharina Lizak" which means "The midwife (was) Katarzyna Lizak" She could possibly be a relative through Antoni's mother. The date of birth is July 7 and the date of baptism is July 8.

All the data for the parents is the same as in the previous record except for the clearer spelling of Antoni's surname.
The male sponsor aka godfather is Michał Mac... and the female sponsor is the same as in the previous record---Katarzyna, the wife of Wojciech Zucha.

Why change a perfectly good surname which could qualify you for a speaking part in Monty Python's Search For the Holy Grail"----"I ### in your general direction"?

Seriously, I hope this helps you solve your case.

Dave
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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:32 pm      Post subject: Re: How we came to be known as Gwizdowski
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dnowicki wrote:


Hi Joe,

This record clarifies the spelling of Antoni's surname. It is Bzdziuch, which is found in Hoffman's book. The writing that you ask about is of minimal import. Under columns 1 & 2 the full Latin is "baptisavit qui supra" which means "The one who is above baptized (him). The other entry reads in full: "Obstetrix Catharina Lizak" which means "The midwife (was) Katarzyna Lizak" She could possibly be a relative through Antoni's mother. The date of birth is July 7 and the date of baptism is July 8.

All the data for the parents is the same as in the previous record except for the clearer spelling of Antoni's surname.
The male sponsor aka godfather is Michał Mac... and the female sponsor is the same as in the previous record---Katarzyna, the wife of Wojciech Zucha.

Why change a perfectly good surname which could qualify you for a speaking part in Monty Python's Search For the Holy Grail"----"I ### in your general direction"?

Seriously, I hope this helps you solve your case.

Dave


Dave, thanks for all this clarification. After many years of searching for Gwizdowski ancestors, and doing quite a bit of tracing back on the Czerwinski line (the false flag!), which Jan and Jozef claimed was their mother's maiden name, I've got a lot of re-writing of history to do!

While I can understand why the brothers might want to assume a more "dignified" surname, I can't help but wonder why they would claim a different surname for their mother? Would it be that, when combining the two meanings (Bzdziuch-Zucha) we would tell people "chew on this!" That would be a higher insult than simply "I fart in your general direction!"

Okay... I can have lots of fun, and so can you, but the question remains: why adopt a different maiden name for your mother?

Finally: can someone please help me with the pronunciation?

Thanks again...I am a little light-headed from all of this!
Cheers,
Joe

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