ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:52 pm
Post subject: Poles in Lithuania
Hello All,
I will start this by saying I have very little understanding of the complex history between Poles, Lithuanians and Russians in the area of the modern Lithuanian state. My question has to do with some distant cousins I have found online on facebook, it seems many of them post pro Russian and pro Putin propaganda and have very nasty feelings toward the govt in Vilnius.
What I am trying to understand as an American of Polish descent is how does this type of thing happen where Poles are Russified?? My family who immigrated from the Wilno area in 1910 fiercely resisted Russification, and many were exiled to Siberia after the January rising of 1863-4.
Can someone explain or try to explain this cultural situation, as an American of Polish roots this seems so odd.
Please forgive my ignorance on this subject.
Hugh
_________________
Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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aleksanderzPolishOrigins Team
Joined: 21 Jul 2017
Replies: 56
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:11 am
Post subject:
As you have said, it is rather complex.
Since taking Wilno with force by Poles in 1920, the Polish-Lithuanian relations got really sour. Former multiethnicity of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth brought plenty of troubles in XX c. time of nation states. After 1920, de iure, Poland and Lithuania were at war, until 1938, when Poland diplomatically forced a peace treaty.
Since the fall of Soviet Union, some of the Lithuanians, authorities included, tend to see Poland as the second threat after Russia (of course, not as much, both countries are in NATO and EU after all). This lead to some discrimination of Polish minority in Lithuania - difficulties with teaching in Polish, Polish street names or Polish spelling of surnames. Since Lithuanian nobility in the past got easily "polonized" by more attractive and "westernized" Polish culture, some of the Lithuanians (influenced by this XX c. hostility) tend to see even P-L Commonwealth as times of Polish oppression. Not to make the same mistake now, they try to minimize Polish culture's influence.
All this leads to hostilities. Hostilities lead to nationalism. And plenty of nationalists tend to see Russia as a model country. This also goes back to the interwar period, where Polish nationalists did not care much about the well-being of Lithuanians, Ukrainians or Belarussians.
A very simplified explanation of two visions of Polish eastern foreign policy would be:
1. "Liberals" influenced by Jerzy Giedroyc work, Piłsudski's prometheism - Poland+Lithuania+Ukraine+Belarus vs Russia
1. Nationalists (influenced in some way by Roman Dmowski's work) - Poland+Russia vs. Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus
Also, Russian media in Lithuania are much more powerful and influential than Polish ones and plenty of Poles in Lithuania get brain-washed by Russian TV.
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HenrykPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Replies: 313
Location: London ON, CanadaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:57 pm
Post subject:
Note that after WWII most Poles were forcibly ejected from the Lithuanian SSR. Perhaps some joined the Communist Party and Russified in order to remain.
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:15 pm
Post subject:
I know this is idealistic but it's hard to picture my relatives (however distant) being apologists for Russia, especially given the history of the family in the Wilno area. My branch escaped the devastation of WW1 and the Bolshevik war etc (They left in the years 1906-1910) but they still had a lot of distaste far the Romanov Tsardom and can only imagine Lenin's Bolsheviks would not have been popular either.
aleksanderz I appreciate your insight and getting back to what you said, I think that maybe in some ways our Polish forebears mistreatment of Lithuanians (esp following WW1) led to this situation and the Soviets/Russians have been able to exploit the nationalistic fringes into warring with each other.
Hopefully not all my Lithuanian Polish relatives are Putin worshippers, because that would really stink!
I've read some little on the Dmowski and Pilsudski feuding factions and find it very strange that Poles would work with Russians given the history.
Thank you both for your input.
Hugh
_________________
Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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aleksanderzPolishOrigins Team
Joined: 21 Jul 2017
Replies: 56
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:16 am
Post subject:
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:25 pm
Post subject:
It's funny the last citizens of Poland were my great grandparents yet this whole thing still bothers me so much.
_________________
Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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sirdanPO Top Contributor
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Replies: 304
Location: ** Southeast Pole**Back to top |
Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:17 pm
Post subject:
| ossnhughie wrote: | Hello All,
I will start this by saying I have very little understanding of the complex history between Poles, Lithuanians and Russians in the area of the modern Lithuanian state. My question has to do with some distant cousins I have found online on facebook, it seems many of them post pro Russian and pro Putin propaganda and have very nasty feelings toward the govt in Vilnius.
What I am trying to understand as an American of Polish descent is how does this type of thing happen where Poles are Russified?? My family who immigrated from the Wilno area in 1910 fiercely resisted Russification, and many were exiled to Siberia after the January rising of 1863-4.
Can someone explain or try to explain this cultural situation, as an American of Polish roots this seems so odd.
Please forgive my ignorance on this subject.
Hugh |
Hi,
Im not sure if i will touch the point, but wiil try to do so.
From time to time i fill holes im my knowledge of Polish history. Some time ago i heard opinion, that Tcar Siberia penalty was piece of cake comparing to what happen later times. The author of opinion referred to amount of victims of autocracy governments. Siberia excile while touching directly Polish patriots, could not compare in evilness to what Stalin (Soviets) did to opponents, and previously bolsheviks too.
What hit me during today wikipedia reading is that POWs had somehow higher status among siberia excilers. They were allowed to work in russian administration or army. Strating from 1860 some prisoners that were nobles could get russian nobility when changed their faith to Orthodoxy. Children of prisoners were free people.
Well, above is nothing what happen to Poles during WWII.
After divide of Polish Kingdom that started in 1772, all three regimes started to destroy polish culture. There was russification, prussification and austrification. Yes, children were teached foreign language in school, they were teached foreign culture, but at home they were raised as Poles by their parents. Even over hundred years under domination of foreign culture didnt imprint much and Poles were still Poles. What's more! Polish culture was developing "as never" Romantism was the period when many patriotic songs, poems and important ideas were created. Thats why, after the WWI, Poland could be recognized as separate coutry with its boarders (we had to fight with bolsheviks anyway to establish boarders haha..) and its population, and NOT as another russian dependant territories or worse russian ethnic group.
But what gave us WWII? Mass killing and mass deportation. During and after WWII Poles were force moved from Lithuania, Ukraine, and other new countries that was cut from II Poland Republic. That way not many Poles stayed on Kresy - home land on east but outside of today Polish Borders. The ones that stayed was left without any support, and later Communism and Propaganda did brainwash to people and their children, living in socialist eastern bloc. So i believe, propaganda do harm more the-way-of-thinking than any other suppression, even military.
Nowadays, people (in every country) watch TV and think the way it is served to them. Putin makes his another propaganda, makes other eastern coutries oil dependant and do corrupt them and so on. Just to force them to play as he wants. Well, people in Lithuania may just repeat what others say without making a deeper look. Just like many do. But what is sad for this small country is it's depopulation. Since 2000 population of lithuania reduced over half milion which means almost 20% less of people. While cause of it is work emigration (same happen in Poland) and low birth rate, this is a kind of indicator what is young people's view.
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:09 pm
Post subject:
I t makes sense that proximity to propaganda would have an effect over the years. In my family (that settled in the USA in 1910 being sympathetic or taking the side of Russia would be beyond comprehension.
_________________
Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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