Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:57 am
Post subject:
So the archivist at the dioceses was able to locate the church marriage record for Helena and Joannes.. (Frances' daughter who immigrated with her).
It does list her baptism place here as well. Doesn't quite seem to match up with Sikorz.
Any discerning eyes?
| Description: |
| St. Ladislaus Marriage Record |
|
| Filesize: |
399.5 KB |
| Viewed: |
10843 Time(s) |
|
Last edited by oncemore on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
PolishLibrarianPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Aug 2010
Replies: 323
Back to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:26 am
Post subject:
| oncemore wrote: | So the archivist at the dioceses was able to locate the church marriage record for Helena and Joannes.. (Frances' daughter who immigrated with her).
It does list her baptism place here as well. Doesn't quite seem to match up with Sikorz.
Any possible help with a general translation? |
Did you think to ask them to look for the marriage record for Szczepan and Joanna in 1919? You have their civil marriage record which only says Poland for his birthplace, but the church record is more likely to include a town. Hopefully Dave or Elzbieta can help you decipher the name of Helena's birthplace. ~PL
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:47 am
Post subject:
| PolishLibrarian wrote: | | Hopefully Dave or Elzbieta can help you decipher the name of Helena's birthplace. ~PL |
Just for record, here are the names I can make out:
Joannem? (Joannes) Jaskinski
Wheeling Wv
Filium: Ladislai (Ladislaus) [The census record lists his mom's name as Lakoda. I can't make out the spelling here.]
illegible town, Poland.
Helenam (Helena) Nowakowska
Filiam: Stephani (Stephen) Francisese (Francis)
illegible town, poland.
Then it looks like possible Carole Jasinski?
And Martha Tomczak
Priests last name was E. Musial
_________________
Newcomer to Polish genealogy. Currently researching: Nowakowski, Markuszewski, Stachyra, Wiliński, Mirczak, and Ciscoń.
|
|
|
Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:42 am
Post subject:
| oncemore wrote: | So the archivist at the dioceses was able to locate the church marriage record for Helena and Joannes.. (Frances' daughter who immigrated with her).
It does list her baptism place here as well. Doesn't quite seem to match up with Sikorz.
Any discerning eyes? |
Oncemore,
Here are groom and bride. Two villages of baptism are in the area of Plock considered yesterday.
I guess that the place of baptism is not necessarily the place of birth (villages nearby are possible).
Helena was born in Murzynowo, baptised in Siecień.
Her mother born in Biała, płocki, Poland, baptised TBD (to be determined).
On the same form Maria declared they are from Sikórz, village close to two others, place of residence.
Best,
Elzbieta
==
PO174 :
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/img_0101_101.jpg
Latin record, marriage in the US
DATE: 11 May 1914
GROOM: Jasinski Joannes - Jan Jasiński
GROOM-PARENTS: Filium - son of: Ladislai et Leocadiae – in Polish: Władysław and Leokadia
Baptizatum in – baptized in: Gozdowo // Gozdowo, Poland circa 15 km North of Płock
BRIDE: Nowakowska Helena - Helena Nowakowska
BRIDE-PARENTS: Filiam - daughter of: Stephani et Franciscae - in Polish: Stefan and Franciszka
Baptizatam in – baptized in: Siecień // Siecień, Poland, circa 2 km from Murzynowo, village in the community Brudzeń Duży, similar to Sikórz and Murzynowo, cf.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siecie%C5%84
==
Last edited by Elzbieta Porteneuve on Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:48 am
Post subject:
Evidently the priest did not see actual baptismal certificates for either the bride or the groom---not unusual at all at that time---since he only entered place names and years without the day or month. The place names are not necessarily the same as the village of birth since they are the names of the place where the parish church was located and most rural parishes were made up of a number of villages. One thing the record does help you nail down is the place where Szczepan and his family resided after the arrival of Franciszka & Helena in 1909. The record states that Helen resided in the parish where she married (St. Ladislaus) for 5 years, a period of time which matches the time frame from her arrival until her marriage in 1914. Here is the translation of the record.
Left Column: Family Name(s): Jasinski Joannes = Jan/John Jasinski; Nowakowska Helena = Helena/Helen Nowakowska
Col. 2: A(nno) D(omini) Die Mensis = On the day of the month in the Year of Our Lord: 1914 Maii 11 = May 11, 1914
Col. 3: Registrum Matrimoniorum = Register of Marriages: Ego ...praemissis tribus...conjunxi Joannem Jasinski ex loco Wheeling filium Ladislai et Leocadiae baptizatum in Gozdowo***** Polonia ...anni 1894 ...et Helenam Nowakowska ... filiam Stephani et Franciscae baptizatam in Sieciu Polonia...anni 1898...(vel) annos quinque commorantem Praesentibus testibus Carole Jawarski(?) et Martha Tomczak... = I, the undersigned, invited and asked for this duty (i.e. to bless the marriage), and not constrained either by force or grave fear, after the three banns had been proclaimed beforehand, and after having received the mutual consent through words, joined in marriage Jan/John Jasinski from Wheeling, the son of Wladyslaw/Ladislaus* and Leokadia/Lillian/Leocadia** baptized in Gozdowo**** Poland on the day (blank) of the month (blank) of the year 1894 whose free status was sufficiently demonstrated, (i.e. that he was free to enter into marriage) and Helen/Helena Nowakowska from (blank) (the place of her residence is specified later in the record), the daughter of Szczepan/Stefan/Stepehen*** and Franciszka/Frances baptized in Sieciu**** Poland on the day (blank) of the month (blank) of the year 1898, residing in this parish for (blank) months (or) five years in the presence of the witnesses Karol/Carl/Charles Jawarski and Martha Tomczak.
I sent notification of this marriage to the Rectors of the Churches in which the above named spouses were baptized.
Signature of the pastor (of St, Ladislaus parish)
Notes: *Ladislaus is the Latin for the Polish given name Wladyslaw. There is no actual English version except Ladislaus although some men called themselves "Walter".
**Leocadia is the Latin for the Polish name Leokadia. The correct English form is the same as the Latin but some ladies preferred to use the English name Lillian.
***Szczepan and Stefan are two Polish forms of the name. Stephen is the English version
****Sieciu appears to be the Locative form of the Polish place Siecien as the priest heard it.
*****Gozdowo is the name of two parishes, one in Wielkopolskie powiat Wrzesnia (German Poland at that time) and the other in Powiat Serpc in what was the Congress Kingdom (The Russian Partition) at that time
The priest probably didn't actually do what he said by signing the record---he probably didn't send notification of the marriage to the parishes where they were baptized---not enough detailed info for him to have done that.
Perhaps Elzbieta can determine the actual name of the parish where Helen was baptized.
The record of Szczepan's second marriage may help to nail things down.
Dave
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:59 am
Post subject:
Many Many thanks to everyone - great info @dnowicki.. and a special thanks to Elzbieta who is a geography and graphology/handwriting analysis wizard.
This is my first real attempt at 'digging deeper' into the Poland side of the records. The Nowakowski branch is my main maternal line. No one in my family (since I have been alive) has had any information on ancestors prior to Stephen/Frances.. And not much was even known on them at all (just their names really). Stephen and frances' son, who was my great-grandfather, died 2 years before I was born. I never had an opportunity to discuss ancestry with him. And I am the first on either side of my family to really start digging into 'amateur genealogy'. So I've had to piece things together and work out what facts I could about them from the US records.
As I attempt to "cross the Atlantic" so to speak, and discover more of this lineage -- I am glad to of found such a welcoming and helpful group of people. I know you probably receive many requests for help such as this. And I'm sure it takes patience to re-explain things to a constant stream of polish-research/history newbies.
So again - many thanks!!
I am crossing my fingers that the archivist can find Stephen's record - and I will post it as soon as possible if he does.
|
|
|
Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
|
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:14 am
Post subject:
Can I write to them in english? If not - can someone help me compose a very simple email - requesting the baptisimal record for Helena?
_________________
Newcomer to Polish genealogy. Currently researching: Nowakowski, Markuszewski, Stachyra, Wiliński, Mirczak, and Ciscoń.
|
|
|
dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:58 pm
Post subject:
oncemore & Elzbieta,
Mixed news. It is not necessary to write to the parish or the archives to research the records for Siecien. The good news---the civil transcripts are online at szukajwarchiwach.pl ...the bad news...Helena's birth was not recorded in the parish of Siecien, gmina Budzen Duzy, powiat Plock in the year 1898. I also looked in 1897 & 1899 with no success. I didn't see the surname Nowakowski in any birth record.
Elzbieta, Is it possible that we are reading the Siecien incorrectly? Perhaps it would be good to see what is recorded in the record of Szczepan's second marriage. Any other suggestions?
Dave
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:33 pm
Post subject:
@dnowicki - haven't heard from the archivist yet. Hopefully today. If not tomorrow at the latest.
1 on-topic question - 1 off topic question.
On Topic: So for the towns in this area of mazowieckie -- what is the correct nomenclature for the full 'area'. Like City, County, State that we use in the US. Is Mazowieckie the equivalent of a county? Ancestry.com finds the locations as "Murzynowo, Mazowieckie, Poland" - but I'm assuming there is at least another level in there..
Slightly off-topic: Is there a generally accepted way for notating the feminine/masculine switches that occur in surnames, in a family tree?
IE: Should I have Frances in my tree as Markuszewski or Markuszewska. Helena as Nowakowski or Nowakowska?
_________________
Newcomer to Polish genealogy. Currently researching: Nowakowski, Markuszewski, Stachyra, Wiliński, Mirczak, and Ciscoń.
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:34 pm
Post subject:
Oncemore,
The Family History Library (LDS) has microfilmed the birth marriage and death records for the Roman Catholic Parishes of Siecien and Sikorz. You can rent and view the microfilm at a Family History Library near you or at your local public library.
Roman Catholic parish registers and civil transcripts of births, marriages and deaths of Siecień(Płock), Warszawa
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/58773#/58773?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Civil transcripts of Roman Catholic parish register of births, marriages and deaths of Sikórz (Płock), Warszawa, Poland
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/58708#/58708?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Roman Catholic parish registers of births, baptisms, marriages and deaths for Sikórz (Płock), Warszawa, Poland.
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/663584#/663584?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Best regards,
Norbert
_________________
Norbert Stevens
|
|
|
PolishLibrarianPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Aug 2010
Replies: 323
Back to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:46 pm
Post subject:
| dnowicki wrote: | | and Franciszka/Frances baptized in Sieciu**** Poland on the day (blank) of the month (blank) of the year 1898, residing in this parish for (blank) months (or) five years in the presence of the witnesses Karol/Carl/Charles Jawarski and Martha Tomczak. Dave |
Oncemore~ Interesting tidbit. Notice the female witness to Helena's marriage in 1914 is Martha Tomczak. Checking the 1910 census she was 12 and was the 2nd of 6 children of John and Johanna Tomczak. The Tomczaks were living at 4409 Water St. in Wheeling and in 1910 the Nowakowski's were living at 4335 McColloch St. - about 6 blocks apart. The 1915 City Directory has Johanna, a widow, living at 4613 Wetzel with her children including Martha, and the Nowakowskis are living at 4340 McColloch. Wetzel is parallel to and one block east of McCulloch, so Johanna is now living even closer to the Nowakowskis. In Nov. 1918 Frances dies of complications from influenza and then Szczepan marries Johanna Tomczak in June 1919. So the friendship of Helena and Martha may have led to the marriage of their widowed parents. Hope their marriage record is found and is revealing!  ~PL
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:56 pm
Post subject:
| PolishLibrarian wrote: | [
Oncemore~ Interesting tidbit. ... So the friendship of Helena and Martha may have led to the marriage of their widowed parents. Hope their marriage record is found and is revealing! ~PL |
You are like a mind reader! I was just going to look into this; I had assumed that Martha was a member of Johanna's family. It would be interesting to hear the real story; but alas, information lost probably forever. Even if I found a living member of Johanna's children, I doubt they'd know the story. Perhaps worth investigating though.
I'm definitely crossing my fingers that the archivist pulls through and has the record - and that it has Stephen's parentals on it. This is the closest I've been to discovering their names, so I'm excited.
Side note re: Frances' death. I have Stephen's obituary. But for the life of me I have not been able to track down Franciscka's. Would love to have it! Would confirm if she had any additional siblings other than Constantine. There were 2 papers in Wheeling at the time - The Intelligencer and the Wheeling News Register.. One was a morning one an evening. I've been through the microfilms for both multiple times for the date range after her death. No luck. I think my next move is going to have to be to scan all of the headlines; I'm thinking maybe there wasn't a true 'obituary' as much as it was a small news story blurb. I've seen that a few times now for deaths in that era.
_________________
Newcomer to Polish genealogy. Currently researching: Nowakowski, Markuszewski, Stachyra, Wiliński, Mirczak, and Ciscoń.
|
|
|
dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:30 pm
Post subject: Questions on topic and off topic
Oncemore,
In ascending order of size administrative locations are Wies (Village), Gmina (no good English equivalent but probably best understood as "Township" in the US), Powiat (usually referred to as "County" in English), and Wojewdztwo (usually referred to as "Province" in English). So the village you asked about would be: Murzynowo (Wies), Brudzen Duzy (Gmina), Plocki (Plock) (Powiat) [Plocki is the adjectival form of Plock so in Polish it is an adjective modifying the masculine noun Plock), Mazowieckie (Wojewdztwo) [Again Mazowieckie is an adjective modifying the neuter noun Wojewdztwo]. Is it necessary to list a location in such detail? I suppose that depends on what you want to do. Most genealogy programs like Family Tree Maker or Legacy don't get that detailed. E.G. if you begin to type in "Murzyn" in the location space the auto complete will provide it as Murzynowo, Mazowieckie, Poland. If you want to be more detailed, it is necessary to manually enter the data as you want it to appear. My personal practice is to use the auto complete version. One thing to keep in mind when you make your decision of how you want to enter the data is the size of Poland. In relation to one of our states, Poland is slightly smaller than New Mexico in area. Another thing to keep in mind is that when addressing a letter to Poland, all those details are not used. But ultimately the decision is yours.
The treatment of feminine Polish surnames in my opinion depends on what you set out to accomplish. Polish adjectival surnames (those ending in -ski and -cki along with others like "Niespodziany" are rendered in the feminine form of the adjective in Poland....-ska, cka,and "Niespodziana". In the USA these days they are most often kept in the masculine form, but not always. When I was in grammar school the nuns would always refer to girls with the proper feminine form of their surname like Nowakowska, Potocka, Niespodziana, etc. However, they were Polish nuns and most of the girls were of Polish descent. I doubt that the situation is the same in the vast majority of places today. Again, when using programs like Legacy or Family Tree Maker children will automatically be entered with the father's surname. To switch to the feminine form requires a manual override. Then there is the question of what to do with feminine Polish surnames which are grammatically nouns. As I understand the contemporary practice in Poland such surnames are usually kept in the masculine form. However, in earlier times it was common practice to add a suffix to the surname to indicate "wife of" (-owa) for a married woman and "daughter of" (-owna) for a single lady. A woman who was married to a man named Wozniak would be Wozniakowa and their daughter would be Wozniakowna In 17th and 18th Century records in the areas where some of my ancestors lived the custom was to add a syllable to a surname together with the feminine termination "a". So the daughter of a man named Gorniak was called Gornianka. Once again, how you handle the feminine surname question depends on what you want to accomplish. Personally I allow the genealogy program to automatically enter the names in the masculine form. Then in the notes I list the feminine form as an alternate. However, on a physical pedigree chart like the 12 generation chart I purchased, I enter the direct female ancestors in the form that was in vogue at the time they lived. (I purchased the chart because reports generated by genealogy programs usually only display 4 generations on a given page.) Again, I believe that the decision of how you want to handle the female surname question is up to you.
A related topic is the treatment of given names for which there is no "official" English version. A boy may have been named Wladyslaw or a girl Bronislawa and that was how they were known in their family and even in the larger Polish community but in the "English" world they may have used an unrelated English name. Wladyslaw may have called himself Walter and Bronislawa may have called herself Bertha or Bernice---names which are not actually related to their actual given name. But that is another topic for another time.
Hope this clarifies rather than confuses.
Dave
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Register