Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:42 pm
Post subject: Need help decypering ancestors town of origin
I need some help finding my ancestors place of origin. I at first thought it was Zembrus here: http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/ar17-zs0635d Then I thought it was Zaramby here: http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryki.php?op=kt&ar=6&zs=0103d&sy=1892&kt=1 However searching both, I didn't find my ancestors or his siblings.
Below I have compiled all the location info I have, which is mostly passenger manifests. No death, nor marriage (even church copy) nor ss card application for my ancestor or his siblings mentions anything other then Poland or Russia/Poland. What I know for a fact is my ancestor was Stanley Maluchnik born on October 26, 1892 and he had a brother Anthony born March 24 1885. When Anthony died Stanley married his wife, Margaret Charlotte Lewandowski born on March 10, 1897 (I have even less of an idea where she was born). I was told this may indicate they were Jewish. Stanley and Anthony also had a brother August born December 25, 1882 and a sister Maryanna Maluchnik born January 10,1894. Their father is Anton Maluchnik and mothers name was Karolina Krosky (not sure on last name). I have found some birth records for other Maluchnik's in my search, but none that I know for sure are mine. Could someone please look at the following image I have complied all their location info in and help me get a town of birth.
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Need help decypering ancestors town of origin
Lyn,
http://polishorigins.com/forum/files/maluchnikarrivals_139.png
I see Zembrzus, Zembrzus Plock in Maryanna record (first line)
and, with some imagination,
Zembrzus (Zemdru), Przasnysz (Prasnis) in Stanley record (last line)
The following two places are close, and were part to powiat Plock in 19 century.
Zembrzus Wielki
Przasnysz
Best,
Elzbieta
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:41 pm
Post subject:
Thanks, so different Zembrzus then one I looked at? So confusing. Are the records not online for this Zembrus? Having trouble finding it.
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PolishLibrarianPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Aug 2010
Replies: 323
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:08 pm
Post subject:
Lyn~ If you search your first record source (where you looked for Zembrus) for Przasnysz you get this result http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/pow-266 Many records for Przasnysz and some for Zaręby (pronounced Zaremby) which is north of Przasnysz. I agree with Elzbieta (and she is the expert) that in Maryanna's record the town is Zembrzus. Not sure where records from Zembrzus Wielki would be - Przasnysz or another town. It's also close to Grudusk whose records are here http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/pow-97. Looks like this is Russian Partition so records are probably in Cyrillic. Good luck. ~PL
PS I just looked in the 1894 records for Zaręby - Sku 01 (maybe index page) and found a Maluchnik on the image (righthand page, #44, not written in Cyrillic) here's the link to the image http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=6&zs=0103d&sy=1893&kt=1&plik=SkU-01.jpg#zoom=1&x=2274&y=2100 I have no experience in these records, so I don't know how you should proceed. Sorry.
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:50 am
Post subject:
Thank PolishLibrarian and thank you again Elzbieta! So the records for Czernice Borowe wouldn't be with the Przasnysz ones here? http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/ar6-zs0104d Thats unfortunate. How odd they aren't online when it seems most of Poland's records are.
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:36 am
Post subject:
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | Thank PolishLibrarian and thank you again Elzbieta! So the records for Czernice Borowe wouldn't be with the Przasnysz ones here? http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/ar6-zs0104d Thats unfortunate. How odd they aren't online when it seems most of Poland's records are. |
Lyn & others,
Czernice Borowe online records in Poczekalnia: from 1826 to 1912.
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/AP-Mlawa/Czernice_Borowe_numeruje_RP/
Gilberto
P.S. Could not find them in Zembrzus, Czernice Borowe, Zareby, Grudusk, Wegra.
Looked for August 1882, Antoni 1885, Stanislaw 1892, Maryanna 1894.
P.S. 2: I have noticed that most of Maluchnik appear either in mazowieckie or in warminsko-mazurkie. These ones are in Janowo parish. And Janowo is not that far from a place named Zembrzus-Mokry Grunt.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:46 am
Post subject:
Magroski, thank you very much for looking. I really appreciate it! I looked numerous times, but was worried I was being incompetent and misreading it. And I did look in Janowo too, that is the Zembrus I linked in my original post, unless I am mistaken. This is so odd. I have draft registrations and death certs and even a marriage cert mentioning birthdays. I am sure they were born then. My first thought is they were born elsewhere and their parents migrated with them when they were young. What are the parishes next closest to these ones that I should be checking next? Or, is it likely their parents for whatever reason didn't register their births? I have found some very odd stuff while researching. Like obituary mentioning them all is siblings, yet upon researching their seems to be two different fathers, both Maluchnik. Which wouldn't be so odd if one wasn't leaving a father in Poland on their manifest and the other heading to a different named father in US on theirs. And I have Antoni's and Stanleys father as Antoni on Antoni Jrs death cert and Stanleys marriage cert yet in census August's sister who arrived with him is living with a father Frank Maluchnik in 1920, same as the one they are both heading to on the ship. So, I'm really eager to finally find some birth certificates to sort this mess out. Would they legally at that time have been allowed to not record the births? And did polish people if they were close with their families often name their cousins as sister/brother in obituaries?
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:35 pm
Post subject:
Lyn,
Another possibility which should not be discarded out of hand is that perhaps the days and months of birth in secondary sources are correct but not the years. For some reason people used different years in later records instead of their actual year of birth and then those false years come to be regarded as Gospel and become self-perpetuating. Growing up we lived in the same house with my maternal grandparents and I always was told by my grandmother herself that she was born on October 13, 1885 in Retkowo and was baptized in the parish of Brzyskorzystew. I'm guilty of contributing to that date appearing on her death certificate---no denying it---my signature appears on the certificate as the informant. When I searched for her birth record I was dismayed that her birth was not to be found in the parish baptismal register for October of 1885---or for any other month in 1885. She was born on October 13 but of 1884 and not 1885 and that is where I found her birth and baptismal entry. So perhaps it may be good to look in the surrounding years for the birth records you need before looking in other parishes.
Just a suggestion....
Dave
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:45 pm
Post subject:
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | My first thought is they were born elsewhere and their parents migrated with them when they were young. |
This is a strong possibility, since we can't find them in Zembrzus or in nearby parishes.
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | What are the parishes next closest to these ones that I should be checking next? |
Besides those I mentioned, also Pawlow Koscielne. You should also look at this parishes map in that area.
http://www.mapadiecezjiplockiej.bl.ee/Mapa-PL/
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | Or, is it likely their parents for whatever reason didn't register their births? |
I don't think so.
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | ...is living with a father Frank Maluchnik in 1920... |
I remember to have seen records where the father was Franciszek.
By the way, a Franciszek Maluchnik married Anna Kraska (your Kroski?) in Zareby in 1877. That was five years before August was born, so maybe it was the couple. However, I have checked Franciszek and Anna's birth records to check if they had a second name: no, they didn't.
| Lyn1982 wrote: | | Would they legally at that time have been allowed to not record the births? And did polish people if they were close with their families often name their cousins as sister/brother in obituaries? |
Sorry, I don't have answer to these two last questions.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:34 pm
Post subject:
Thank you again Magroski. I will try to find the pawlow records and take a look at more parishes in that area too. One thing I'm confused on is if they were born elsewhere and immigrated to Zembrus/Zaramy or whatever, then why are their so many Maluchnik's already in those parishes. It doesn't seem like there are many elsewhere when I search. Are all of polands birth records online?
I don't know if that's the couple I'm looking for or not. Only one record of all the ones I have mentions a mothers name. It is Carolina Krosky on Stanley's marriage cert (and his father is Anton on it). On Anton's death cert it has mother as unknown, father as Anton. And August's death cert has both parents as unknown. Maybe I am wrong on this being my Alexandra Maluchnik here: (age is off, but on the actual census page you can see age is smudged off) however arrival year does match the year my August arrived on ship with sister Alexandra heading to father Frank. Unfortunately I've been unable to find more records of this Alexandra and her father. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MVMW-7LJ Of course other option is that both the Alexandra and August Maluchnik on the manifest aren't siblings of mine, but arrival year also matches August's census arrival year which I know for a fact is him based off his obit which mentions where he lived, which mentions my ancestor Stanley as his brother along with garden city, NY (so I know it's mine). I just don't see why the father would be Anton on some records and most ship manifests and Frank in census and another ship manifest.
There is also a record of a Jan Maluchnik being born here: http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1888&kt=1&plik=045-046.jpg#zoom=1&x=1383&y=1267 with father Antoni Maluchnik and Karolina Napałowska, but given the lack of finding birth records for ones I know are mine and the difference in mothers surname I just cannot confirm these are the ones I'm looking for.
Dnowick, thank you. I will check surrounding years, you may be very right on that. Would explain a lot of why I cannot find them. I think I'll start with checking the Janowo parish ones as that is where the Antoni Maluchnik and Karolina Napalowska record is. Will update if I find any Maluchnik's in those years, as I cannot seem to make out the first names in the records nearly as well.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:55 pm
Post subject:
Accordingly to my poor knowledge of the russian language the place is Zembrzus.
Gilberto
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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:49 am
Post subject:
Thank you again Gilberto. I think Janowo is the parish it's in. One question I have, and I don't know if you or anyone would know the answer or not. But I have been wondering about this, Well as you know the site search here: http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?rid=B&from_date=1879&to_date=1899&search_lastname=maluchnik&search_lastname2=&rpp2=50&rpp1=0&bdm=50&w=07mz&op=gt&exac= a lot of Maluchnik's come up. My question is it appears most, if not all of the Zembrus/Zaramby ones, as well as some from other parishes, have been indexed. My question is, do you or does anyone else know how complete this site is on their indexing? Just wondering, because it is odd if most are indexed that all of mine missed the index. And I did check years before and after in the index pages for them in Zembrus, Mokry Grunt so far and while I saw some Maluchnik's none appear to be mine. I still have to check the other Zembrus, etc which is why I wanted to ask about the indexing.
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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:37 am
Post subject:
Lyn,
Geneteka index database is being constantly updated. If you select, for instance, mazowieckie and then the first place, Andrzejewo, you will see it displays "Andrzejewo - U - 1808-1826". However, when you scroll down the menu and click on Andrzejewo U 1808-1826 you can see read "Lata: 1808-15,26", which means the years 1816-1825 were not indexed. In cases like that, I go either to Metryk, or Poczekalnia, or ZoSIA to check if these Geneteka-missing-years are available.
There are lots of Maluchnik in mazowieckie and warminsko-mazurskie provinces. If you take a look in a map you will notice that villages in both provinces are not that far from each other. In my opinion, it strongly suggests the Maluchniks move from one area to another.
I could read the age of Antoni and Karolina in that marriage record. He was 40 y.o. (and she was 2 , therefore born about 1848. I then looked from 1845 to 1850 and could not find Antoni's birth record. However, I found a birth record for Maryanna, in 1890. http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1890&kt=1&plik=139-140.jpg#zoom=3&x=227&y=2172
1892 is missing.
Jozefa in 1895 http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1895&kt=1&plik=043-044.jpg#zoom=3&x=254&y=2064
Jozef in 1898 http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1898&kt=1&plik=127-128.jpg#zoom=2.5&x=504&y=2012
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:04 pm
Post subject:
| Magroski49 wrote: | Lyn,
Geneteka index database is being constantly updated. If you select, for instance, mazowieckie and then the first place, Andrzejewo, you will see it displays "Andrzejewo - U - 1808-1826". However, when you scroll down the menu and click on Andrzejewo U 1808-1826 you can see read "Lata: 1808-15,26", which means the years 1816-1825 were not indexed. In cases like that, I go either to Metryk, or Poczekalnia, or ZoSIA to check if these Geneteka-missing-years are available.
There are lots of Maluchnik in mazowieckie and warminsko-mazurskie provinces. If you take a look in a map you will notice that villages in both provinces are not that far from each other. In my opinion, it strongly suggests the Maluchniks move from one area to another.
I could read the age of Antoni and Karolina in that marriage record. He was 40 y.o. (and she was 28), therefore born about 1848. I then looked from 1845 to 1850 and could not find Antoni's birth record. However, I found a birth record for Maryanna, in 1890. http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1890&kt=1&plik=139-140.jpg#zoom=3&x=227&y=2172
1892 is missing.
Jozefa in 1895 http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1895&kt=1&plik=043-044.jpg#zoom=3&x=254&y=2064
Jozef in 1898 http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1898&kt=1&plik=127-128.jpg#zoom=2.5&x=504&y=2012
Gilberto |
Gilbero, Lyn,
Jozefa's record is in Cyrillic, here translated, with summary and Polish anotation about her death.
Maryanna's record.
Jozef's record.
Best,
Elzbieta
==PO220Cyr :
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1895&kt=1&plik=043-044.jpg#zoom=2.7092320966350303&x=0&y=1867
Zembrzus 44
It did happen in posada Janowo, April /3/15/ 1895 year, 1 pm.
Appeared in Antoni Maluchnik, carpenter, 45 years, residing in the village Zembrzus, in the presence of Faustyn Zembrzuski, 60 years, and Tomasz Borkowski, 50 years, both residing in the village Zembrzus, and presented us a female child, declaring she was born in the village Zembrzus, April /1/13/ current year, 5 am, with his wife Karolina born Napałowska, 40 years. On the holy baptism held today the child has been given the name Józefa, and his godparents were the mentioned above Faustyn Zembrzuski and Marianna Jaroszewska. This act … etc.
Pastor of the parish Janowo.
SUMMARY:
DATE-of-ACT: /3/15/ - 15 April 1895, 1 pm, in Janowo
FATHER: Antoni Maluchnik, carpenter, 45 years, residing in the village Zembrzus
MOTHER: Karolina born Napałowska, 40 years, his wife
KTO: Józefa Maluchnik, born /1/13/ - 13 April 1895, 5 am, in Zembrzus
WITNESSES: Faustyn Zembrzuski, 60 years, and Tomasz Borkowski, 50 years, both residing in the village Zembrzus
GODPARENTS: Faustyn Zembrzuski and Marianna Jaroszewska
Left margin in Polish:
Godomska Józefa zd. (z domu) Maluchnik zmarla dnia 7.X.1968 w Rapatach Sulimach akt zgonu sporzadzony w USC Chorzelach za nr. 66/68
//
Józefa Godomska born Maluchnik died 7 October 1968, in Rapaty-Sulimy, death record number 66/68 in USC [Urzad Stanu Cywilnego=Civil Vital Records Registry] Chorzele
==
==PO220Cyr:
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1890&kt=1&plik=139-140.jpg#zoom=2.6859361518550475&x=0&y=1887
Zembrzus 140
It did happen in posada Janowo, /28 October/9 November/ 1890 year, 1 pm.
Appeared in Antoni Maluchnik, workman, 40 years, residing in the village Zembrzus, in the presence of Jozef Mogiewski, 40 years, and Leon Szemilinski, 40 years, both residing in the village Zembrzus, and presented us a female child, declaring she was born in the village Zembrzus, /19/30/ October current year, 3 pm, with his wife Karolina born Napałowska, 30 years. On the holy baptism held today the child has been given the name Maryanna, and his godparents were Jozef Burdynski and Katarzyna Sobolewska. This act … etc.
Pastor of the parish Janowo.
SUMMARY:
DATE-of-ACT: /28 October/9 November/ - 9 November 1890, 1 pm, in Janowo
FATHER: Antoni Maluchnik, workman, 40 years, residing in the village Zembrzus
MOTHER: Karolina born Napałowska, 30 years, his wife
KTO: Maryanna Maluchnik, born /19/30 – 30 October 1890, 3 pm, in Zembrzus
WITNESSES: Jozef Mogiewski, 40 years, and Leon Szemilinski, 40 years, both residing in the village Zembrzus
GODPARENTS: were Jozef Burdynski and Katarzyna Sobolewska
==
==PO220Cyr:
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=17&zs=0635d&sy=1898&kt=1&plik=127-128.jpg#zoom=2.5&x=242&y=2012
Zembrzus 128
It did happen in posada Janowo, /12/24/ November 1898 year, 1 pm.
Appeared in Antoni Maluchnik, carpenter, 53 years, residing in the village Zembrzus, in the presence of Leonard Borowy, 40 years, and Leon Szemilinski, 55 years, both residing in the village Zembrzus, and presented us a male child, declaring he was born in the village Zembrzus, /6/18/ November current year, 4 am, with his wife Karolina born Napałowska, 40 years. On the holy baptism held today the child has been given the name Józef, and his godparents were Faustyn Zembrzuski and Anna Felkowska. This act … etc.
Pastor of the parish Janowo.
SUMMARY:
DATE-of-ACT: /12/24/ - 24 November 1898, 1 pm, in Janowo
FATHER: Antoni Maluchnik, carpenter, 53 years, residing in the village Zembrzus
MOTHER: Karolina born Napałowska, 40 years, his wife
KTO: Józef Maluchnik, born /6/18/ - 18 November 1898, 4 am, in Zembrzus
WITNESSES: Leonard Borowy, 40 years, and Leon Szemilinski, 55 years, both residing in the village Zembrzus
GODPARENTS: Faustyn Zembrzuski and Anna Felkowska
==
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