Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:40 pm
Post subject: Finding passport numbers
Hello All, I'm searching for some type of proof that all my relatives came from Poland in 1923... I was thinking that as they all were leaving to reach Copenhagen to board the ship that brought them to the US, they would have had to have travel records of some type to cross the boarders legally..
Also, My grandfather left in 1911 but from Hamburg not Copenhagen, Why?..
So how would everyone get from Ostroleka to Copenhagen in January-February of 1923. Would they take trains, leave go to the North, or go east toward Germany than North toward Denmark ???
Lastly, would the ship they all left on pick them up in Poland than go to Copenhagen to leave for the US? Are there records of passport numbers anywhere.. Thank you for looking AND any help will be used by me. Thanks, Steve Dardzinski
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:48 am
Post subject: Re: Finding passport numbers
| stevedardz wrote: | Hello All, I'm searching for some type of proof that all my relatives came from Poland in 1923... I was thinking that as they all were leaving to reach Copenhagen to board the ship that brought them to the US, they would have had to have travel records of some type to cross the boarders legally..
Also, My grandfather left in 1911 but from Hamburg not Copenhagen, Why?..
So how would everyone get from Ostroleka to Copenhagen in January-February of 1923. Would they take trains, leave go to the North, or go east toward Germany than North toward Denmark ???
Lastly, would the ship they all left on pick them up in Poland than go to Copenhagen to leave for the US? Are there records of passport numbers anywhere.. Thank you for looking AND any help will be used by me. Thanks, Steve Dardzinski |
Steve,
The travel documents concept -- passport now -- is very recent. The very first method of global naming of passeports came with ISO 3166 standard, in 1974.
The UK official site, pages 5 and 6 are relevant:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/455424/guide_-_including_impostors_and_TDs.pdf
In short, it started in 1914 in the UK with one single page of paper, and the first "old blue" in 1920.
Canadian website: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/games/teachers-corner/history-passports.asp states
"A series of international passport conferences (1920, 1926 and 1947) led to a number of changes to the Canadian passport. The 1920 conference recommended that all countries adopt a booklet-type passport, which Canada began issuing in 1921. Another recommendation of 1920, that all passports were to be written in at least two languages, one of which was to be French, led to the first bilingual Canadian passport in 1926."
US website: https://www.archives.gov/research/foreign-policy/state-dept/genealogy.html states
"Passport Applications. The Department of State is responsible for issuing passports. Except for brief periods during the Civil War (August 19, 1861 to March 17, 1862) and World War I (1915-1922), U.S. citizens did not require passports for travel overseas until 1941. Since then, American citizens traveling overseas have been required to hold passports."
Concerning travels of your ancestor: please consider railways, and geography. Polish railways scheme from 1953 is not much different from infrastructure build up since the very inception of railways. You could take a train from Ostroleka to Gdansk, Szczecin, and beyond, to Copenhagen (or any other possibility then available westward)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/PKP1952-53.jpg
Trains were very important at the beginning of 20 century. Then ships to accross oceans. People were carrying their luggage themselves. See "America America" Kazan's movie, it is historical.
I recall I saw once Polish passport with crowned eagle, issued between WWI and WWII, which holder was an old Polish lady in France - she needed to travel to Poland, and went to the Polish Consulate in 1980s to verify validity. It was exceptional moment for her and for consulate staff as well. That document was similar to what I found just now
http://www.atticus.pl/index.php?pag=poz&id=81944
Best,
Elzbieta
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2957
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:25 am
Post subject: Hamburg vs. Copenhagen
Steve,
A very possible reason why your grandfather left from Hamburg in 1911 could most likely be found in the history of immigrant ships prior to WWI. Immigrants were the bread and butter of the transatlantic passenger trade during the late 19th & early 20th Centuries. Of course Poles immigrated to places other than the USA---like Brazil, Canada, Australia, etc. but my interest and experience is limited to immigration to the USA prior to WWI (the period when all my ancestors and relatives emigrated from Poland). There were a number of ports from which Poles sailed from Europe, like Bremen, Hamburg, Rotterdam, Liverpool, etc. but the most popular ports of Embarkation were Hamburg and Bremen. A typical immigrant ship like the Pennsylvania, on which my paternal grandfather immigrated, carried 340 first & second class passengers and 2,382 third class (steerage) passengers. While the cost of a steerage ticket was far less than that of a first or second class ticket it was where the profit came from based on volume. There was considerable competition among the various transatlantic passenger lines to attract steerage passengers for their ships and as a result companies had agents in various locations in Europe selling tickets---including in villages in Poland. Often a person planning to immigrate would purchase the ticket in a village near where they lived and have it in hand when they arrived at the port of departure. It is speculative but very plausible that all those factors influenced your grandfather's choice to sail from Hamburg.
There is an LDS film of passports from Hamburg but as far as I know those who needed such a passport was limited to residents of Hamburg or perhaps also to nearby locations in Germany. Family Search has a number of articles on immigrants and on ports of departure and Cyndi's List has links to other resources. Also, most public libraries which have a good genealogy section should have print resources which may be of value to you. An online description of many passenger ships involved in the transatlantic trade is The Ship's List (www.theshipslist.com). Since post WWI immigration is beyond my field of interest I cannot provide any suggestions about immigration via Copenhagen.
Hope this helps you a bit.
Dave
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rsowaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
Replies: 177
Location: Dundee, Michigan, USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:56 pm
Post subject:
Steve...
Regarding passports. My wife obtained the actual passport that her ancestral family got to emigrate from Hungary in 1890. It's hard to believe that it has survived this long, but it had been protected as a family heirloom. It includes an "authorization stamp" by the civil authority that essentially authorized the family to leave the country. The area they were from was a primarily German speaking region, just a few miles south of the border with Galicia. From what I have read, (at least in the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary), loss of population was a real problem. As a result, the Hungarian government issued passports as a means to control emigration.
Richard
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