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tim_timofey



Joined: 19 Jun 2021
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:31 am      Post subject: Which village??
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Hello dear friends,

I am researching an ancestor and found two confusing records. I'm not sure where they are from.

The first record is a birth/baptism for Anna Walkow which says the father Joannes is from Tarnawa

http://semanchuk.com/gen/wzbr/ShowImage.php?record=2&page=122

And the follow is for her parents marriage citing that Joannes is from Ponaz in Bolchowka

http://semanchuk.com/gen/wzbr/ShowImage.php?record=3&page=034

Where could I find these records, especially for Tarnawa because there seems to be about 100 Tarnawas. I really enjoy learning the tips and tricks you people here teach me. I know I say it alot, but I truly do appreciate it! Many thanks again
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:06 pm      Post subject: Re: Which village??
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tim_timofey wrote:
Hello dear friends,

I am researching an ancestor and found two confusing records. I'm not sure where they are from.

The first record is a birth/baptism for Anna Walkow which says the father Joannes is from Tarnawa

http://semanchuk.com/gen/wzbr/ShowImage.php?record=2&page=122

And the follow is for her parents marriage citing that Joannes is from Ponaz in Bolchowka

http://semanchuk.com/gen/wzbr/ShowImage.php?record=3&page=034

Where could I find these records, especially for Tarnawa because there seems to be about 100 Tarnawas. I really enjoy learning the tips and tricks you people here teach me. I know I say it alot, but I truly do appreciate it! Many thanks again


Hi Tim,

Both records are from the filial church of the parish of Bokowsko located in the village of Ratnawica. The Słownik geograficzny explains this fact: http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_IX/541
Often parishes which covered a considerable territory had more than one church building. In this instance the main parish church was in Bokowsko and there was a “daughter” church (a wood structure) in Ratnawica. In the birth record the parents of the father (Jan) are from Tarnawa and the parents of the mother (Maria) are from Bełchówka. Although the record does not expressly say, the child (Anna) most likely was born in Bełchówka and the baptism took place in the filial church in Ratnawica. In the marriage record both the bride and the groom are residing in Bełchówka.
In my opinion, the Tarnawa is either Tarnawa Dolna or Tarnawa Górna in gmina Zagórz (cf. attached map). The parish for both villages is located in Poraż. By road (which is far from a straight shot) Tarnawa Dolna is 15km from Ratnawica. The way to locate the records from Tarnawa is to find where the records for the RC parish of Poraż are housed. Szukaj w Archiwach & Family Search only have records from 1890-1909. Perhaps contacting the parish would pay off. Here is the website for the parish: http://www.poraz.przemyska.pl/

Helpful hint: The tools I used to gather this info were: 1) a close reading of the text of the marriage and birth records; 2) consulting the Słownik geograficzny; 3) using mapa szukacz and Google Maps (in that order); 4) consulting Katalog Zasobów Metrykalnych https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/ and the parish website.

I hope the info helps and the methodology adds to your research toolbox.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave



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tim_timofey



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Post Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:45 pm      Post subject:
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Dave, This helps alot. On the Parish website I found two email. Poczta e-mail: [email protected] and Kontakt z administratorem: [email protected]. I don't understand Polish but I do speak Ukrainian and Russian. I'm not sure which would be best to write to the regular on or the administrative email. Also, I'm not sure if it matters, but the records that I was looking at was Greek catholic, not Roman catholic. Thanks for the tips Dave!
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:47 pm      Post subject:
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tim_timofey wrote:
Dave, This helps alot. On the Parish website I found two email. Poczta e-mail: [email protected] and Kontakt z administratorem: [email protected]. I don't understand Polish but I do speak Ukrainian and Russian. I'm not sure which would be best to write to the regular on or the administrative email. Also, I'm not sure if it matters, but the records that I was looking at was Greek catholic, not Roman catholic. Thanks for the tips Dave!


Tim,

It does make a difference. The Greek Catholic parish is located in Tarnawa Górna. The two records you posted give no indication that they are Greek Catholic. In fact by the omission of the note that the child was baptized & CONFIRMED the birth record indicates that it is from a Roman Catholic parish. Is it possible that Maria was Roman Catholic and thus the marriage took place in the Roman Catholic parish since marriages were supposed to take place in the bride's parish and then the baptism also took place there? I know that Eastern Rite Catholics are encouraged not to change to the Roman (Latin) Rite but I also know that Eastern Rite Catholics become members of Latin Rite parishes if there is no Eastern Rite parish near where they live. I know quite a few Catholics from Lebanon who live in Michigan City. The Eastern Rite Catholic Church in Lebanon is the Marian Rite. All those Catholics from Lebanon whom I know are members of a Roman/Latin Rite parish because there is no Marian Rite Catholic parish anywhere near here.

I guess that you can scrap the idea of writing to the Roman/Latin Rite parish in Poraz.

Dave
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tim_timofey



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Post Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:13 pm      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:
tim_timofey wrote:
Dave, This helps alot. On the Parish website I found two email. Poczta e-mail: [email protected] and Kontakt z administratorem: [email protected]. I don't understand Polish but I do speak Ukrainian and Russian. I'm not sure which would be best to write to the regular on or the administrative email. Also, I'm not sure if it matters, but the records that I was looking at was Greek catholic, not Roman catholic. Thanks for the tips Dave!


Tim,

It does make a difference. The Greek Catholic parish is located in Tarnawa Górna. The two records you posted give no indication that they are Greek Catholic. In fact by the omission of the note that the child was baptized & CONFIRMED the birth record indicates that it is from a Roman Catholic parish. Is it possible that Maria was Roman Catholic and thus the marriage took place in the Roman Catholic parish since marriages were supposed to take place in the bride's parish and then the baptism also took place there? I know that Eastern Rite Catholics are encouraged not to change to the Roman (Latin) Rite but I also know that Eastern Rite Catholics become members of Latin Rite parishes if there is no Eastern Rite parish near where they live. I know quite a few Catholics from Lebanon who live in Michigan City. The Eastern Rite Catholic Church in Lebanon is the Marian Rite. All those Catholics from Lebanon whom I know are members of a Roman/Latin Rite parish because there is no Marian Rite Catholic parish anywhere near here.

I guess that you can scrap the idea of writing to the Roman/Latin Rite parish in Poraz.

Dave


Dave Hi!

I found this link to Metric books for Tarnawa Dolna, and Gorna from 1784 to 1875. I found but 1 Walkow. Why do you think that is. Is it a possibility that they were going to one of the Wolica churches to marry and get baptized? Those year for Wolica, of course, don't exist What do you think my next move should be, I can't give up! Thank you again
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:10 pm      Post subject:
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tim_timofey wrote:
dnowicki wrote:
tim_timofey wrote:
Dave, This helps alot. On the Parish website I found two email. Poczta e-mail: [email protected] and Kontakt z administratorem: [email protected]. I don't understand Polish but I do speak Ukrainian and Russian. I'm not sure which would be best to write to the regular on or the administrative email. Also, I'm not sure if it matters, but the records that I was looking at was Greek catholic, not Roman catholic. Thanks for the tips Dave!


Tim,

It does make a difference. The Greek Catholic parish is located in Tarnawa Górna. The two records you posted give no indication that they are Greek Catholic. In fact by the omission of the note that the child was baptized & CONFIRMED the birth record indicates that it is from a Roman Catholic parish. Is it possible that Maria was Roman Catholic and thus the marriage took place in the Roman Catholic parish since marriages were supposed to take place in the bride's parish and then the baptism also took place there? I know that Eastern Rite Catholics are encouraged not to change to the Roman (Latin) Rite but I also know that Eastern Rite Catholics become members of Latin Rite parishes if there is no Eastern Rite parish near where they live. I know quite a few Catholics from Lebanon who live in Michigan City. The Eastern Rite Catholic Church in Lebanon is the Marian Rite. All those Catholics from Lebanon whom I know are members of a Roman/Latin Rite parish because there is no Marian Rite Catholic parish anywhere near here.

I guess that you can scrap the idea of writing to the Roman/Latin Rite parish in Poraz.

Dave


Dave Hi!

I found this link to Metric books for Tarnawa Dolna, and Gorna from 1784 to 1875. I found but 1 Walkow. Why do you think that is. Is it a possibility that they were going to one of the Wolica churches to marry and get baptized? Those year for Wolica, of course, don't exist What do you think my next move should be, I can't give up! Thank you again


Hi Tim,

Perhaps they were Latin/Roman Rite Catholics all along. Perhaps it would be a viable path forward to check the Latin Rite parish in Poraz.

Good luck with the search.

Dave
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tim_timofey



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Post Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:15 pm      Post subject:
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Ok Dave, I'll try that. Quick question, If a birth/marriage lists where they were "from" (eg Jan Walkow ex Tarnawa). Does that mean that was actual village they lived in, or the parish they were from? Hope that makes sense.
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:23 am      Post subject:
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tim_timofey wrote:
Ok Dave, I'll try that. Quick question, If a birth/marriage lists where they were "from" (eg Jan Walkow ex Tarnawa). Does that mean that was actual village they lived in, or the parish they were from? Hope that makes sense.


Hi Tim,

It usually refers to the village where the person resided. Sometimes the village of residence and the parish were the same but often they were not.

In the Walków records the use of the Latin preposition ex is a bit strange and the entries could have been much clearer. In the baptism of Anna the father is described as being ex Tarnawa. The preposition should be construed as referring to his parents and thus to his place of birth. The mother is being described as being ex Bełchówka. Again, the preposition should be construed as referring to her parents and thus to her place of birth. The muddy part is that Bełchówka is where the couple was living in house #18 in the village. Obviously, both the mother and the father were living in the same place. The more usual phrasing for the entry for the father would have been “natus in Tarnawa et habitans in Bełchówka” (born in Tarnawa and residing in Bełchówka). This phrasing eliminates ambiguity. The more usual phrasing for the entry for the mother would have been “nata et habitans in Bełchówka” (born and residing in Bełchówka). That is basically what the preposition ex means in both cases but the phrasing is ambiguous.
In the marriage record the preposition ex refers to where the bride and the groom were residing at the time of the wedding. Again, notice that the house number is 18 in the village of Bełchówka. Here is refers to the residence of the bride. It is worth noting from the two records that after the wedding the couple lived in the house of the bride’s parents. It was quite usual for newlyweds to live either with the parents of the bride or of the groom. Living conditions could be quite crowded depending on how many siblings of the bride or the groom were still living at home with their parents. Also, is was quite common for tenants/borders to be residing with a family. In entries for the German Partition the Słownik geograficzny often lists the number of houses in a village along with the number of inhabitants of the village and the number of Catholic and Protestant residents. I’ve seen listings like 10 houses, 160 residents, 159 Catholics & 1 Protestant. Such info tells us that on average 16 individuals resided in a cottage. Since the cottages were not large and often consisted in one large room for cooking, eating and sleeping and one small “master” bedroom there was not much privacy in the home. That type of data is not usually included in entries for the Russian and the Austrian Partitions but the living arrangements would have been quite similar in those Partitions.

I hope that this helps to answer your questions.

Dave
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tim_timofey



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Post Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:04 pm      Post subject:
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Very interesting. I found this great website. It has proved very helpful. Thanks again Dave! https://www.geshergalicia.org/galician-town-locator/
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