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Shellie
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: Decipher record by Father Jan Mis (Odrowaz) what do u think?

Calling all experts in Polish Roman Catholic church records.

The attached record shows 2 births in April 1879. The writing looks like Ema Vid or maybe Enza Vid. This does not show in any other records that I've viewed.

What do you think?

Birth 1879.JPG

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Last edited by Shellie on Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

Ute
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: Re: Deciphering church record - what do you think?

Shellie wrote:

Shellie,
Since both babies were females (puella), it could be the female first names Erna, i.e. the children's names would be Erna Figora resp. Erna Kwak. When I saw 'vid', I first thought of the word vidua = widow, but that doesn't fit here. Since this entry doesn't show in any other records you have viewed, it could mean "vidi" which means in Latin "I saw". I noticed that both babies were baptized the same day they were born which could mean that it were emergency baptisms because the babies were weak or sick and were brought to the church or seen at home by the priest and baptized right after birth. Do you have access to death records of these years to see if you find an entry relating to these children? Just a thought ...

My paternal grandparents had a little girl, Helena, born 1913. In the Chicago Death Index Helena is listed as ‘Female’ with an SB in front of the date which I am quite sure means ‘stillbirth’, even though it sounded as though she was born alive. Helena was baptised right after birth. I was told that often stillbirths were not immediately recorded as such, upon emergency request from the family, who wanted the stillborn infant to be baptized BEFORE the infant was officially pronounced as dead.

I found another possible explanation for 'vid' in the GaliciaPoland-Ukraine message board: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/message/29399
"Sometime between the 18th and 24th of January 1826, the church records were inspected by a visiting authority higher in the heirarchy. As is usual, that authority made an entry, to wit, "Vidi C.R. pro .826" and signed the register. Now I am not sure about the initials, but one regulary finds the initials CR to represent the civil government, not a church senior .."
Ute

Magroski49
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:54 am Post subject:

Shellie,
I think it is Ema.

Ute,
On one hand I entirely agree with your thoughts. On the other hand, however, it doesn't make sense to me why the priest would abbreviate 'vidi' if all he had to do was add the letter 'i' at the end. The latin words database in http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/rg/guide/WLLatin.asp#top shows the word "videlicet", which is transcribed as 'namely'. Still makes no sense to me.

Gilberto

Ute
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:28 am Post subject:

Magroski49 wrote:

Gilberto,
The abbreviation of the word "videlicet" (namely) seems to be "viz" ... I agree that it doesn't make sense why the priest would abbreviate 'vidi' to 'vid' if all he had to do was add the letter 'i' at the end, but perhaps 'vid' was the abbreviation officially used in parish records. It may be a little far-fetched, but it could also mean that the infant was presented to the priest and that he 'saw' (eyewitnessed) that the baby existed, for example before he/she died.

Last edited by Ute on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ute
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Deciphering church record - what do you think?

Shellie wrote:

Yet another explanation -- http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,547827.0.html Could it mean "look below" and refer to the words written below that look like "Baptized ..."??

Ute
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Deciphering church record - what do you think?

Shellie and Gilberto,
Re: Yet another explanation -- http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,547827.0.html -- Perhaps it means "see below" and refers, for example, to the words written below that look like "Baptized ego ..." or to another entry in the church books, or even the page before this one?
I found another translation of the abbreviation "vid.": "The abbreviation vid. (Latin meaning ‘it seems’ or ‘apparently’) ..." See: http://www.theintellectual.info/pdf/e-books/An%20Introduction%20to%20the%20NT%20Manuscripts%20and%20their%20Texts.pdf

Last edited by Ute on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:46 am; edited 4 times in total

Louie

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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:10 pm Post subject:

When I read the question I was sure I knew the answer. That was before I read all the responses - all well thought out, I might add. Is this the same priest who did the baptisms on the rest of this page? Did these babies live? Everyone who survived Caesar's Gallic Wars knows Veni, Vidi, Vici! If it means "I saw (it)" i.e. the baptism, then the "i" would have been added automatically. Sorry, I am not much help, but it is a good puzzler. It is also the first time I have seen a house number listed. How exciting!

Shellie
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:02 pm Post subject:

These are all very interesting and insightful replies. Thanks everyone!

The priest for this parish was Father Jan Kanty Mis (usually written Jan Cantius Mis or J.C. Mis in the records).

I was curious whether these entries represented a Catholic saint associated with the month of April.

What do you think? Any similar names for Name Day near these births?
It is quite an interesting mystery!

Cheri Vanden Berg
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject:

The name does look like Ema to me. Their is a St. Emma. I think I read that her birth date was June 27th, but I'm not sure if a birth date is the same as a Saint's Feast Day. This is one of my favorite sites to look at when trying to decipher Polish first names in documents: http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/polish-names-4.html There are many names that I haven't seen on other sites for Polish names, but then I'm sure there are names missing from this site as well. There aren't many names that start with E. There is Ewa, but that name does not look like Ewa to me. Ewa's Feast Day is December 24th.

Cheri Vanden Berg
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:48 pm Post subject:

It was actually St. Emma's Feast Day that is June 27th...

Cheri Vanden Berg
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject:

Don't know if this is a complete list, but it's a list of April Saint's Feast Days:
http://www.catholic.org/saints/f_day/apr.php
Is it possible that this name in question is written in Latin, and there is a different Polish version of the name?

Ute
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: Father Jan Kanty Mis, Odrowaz

Shellie wrote:

Shellie,
You mentioned Father Jan Kanty Mis -- have you seen the article "THE HISTORY OF THE PARISH IN ODROWAZ PODHALANSKI IN THE LIGHT OF THE PARISH CHRONICLE (1844) (Dzieje parafii w Odrowazu Podhalanskim w swietle kroniki parafialnej (1844)?
"Abstract: The reader is presented with an article based on the chronicle of the parish in Odrowaz, which originated in 1819 and describes its history till the end of the 19th century. The author of the text was Jan Kanty Mis - the first official rector of this parish. ..."
See http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?11PLAAAA104118
Ute

Shellie
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Father Jan Kanty Mis, Odrowaz

Ute! This is great. I've never seen this. I've pasted the info below:

Authors: Lukaszewska-Haberkowa Justyna

Title: THE HISTORY OF THE PARISH IN ODROWAZ PODHALANSKI IN THE LIGHT OF THE PARISH CHRONICLE (1844) (Dzieje parafii w Odrowazu Podhalanskim w swietle kroniki parafialnej (1844))

Source: Archiwa Biblioteki i Muzea Koscielne (Church Archives Libraries and Museums)
year: 2011, vol: 95, number: , pages: 33-48
More information

Keywords: ODROWAZ PODHALANSKI, PARISH CHRONICLE

Discipline: HISTORY

Language: POLISH

Document type: ARTICLE

Publication order reference:
Justyna Lukaszewska-Haberkowa, Jesuit University Ignatianum in Krakow, ul. Kopernika 26, 31-501 Krakow

Abstract: The reader is presented with an article based on the chronicle of the parish in Odrowaz, which originated in 1819 and describes its history till the end of the 19th century. The author of the text was Jan Kanty Mis - the first official rector of this parish. He shortly described its history as well as that of the church. He also listed the furnishings of the temple and characterized its mural paintings. The text, written in Latin, also contains biographies of the fi rst two rectors of the parish. At the turn of the nineteenth century many churches affiliated to existing parishes in the southern part of Poland became independent. The first community to have undergone this process was that of Chocholow and later on similar efforts were made by inhabitants of Pieniazkowice. In 1818 the construction of the church started. According to regulations, each new parish should consist of at least one thousand worshippers. At the same time villagers from Odrowaz, which was only 1.5 km away from Pianiazkowice, also commenced the construction of their own temple. In 1819 the decision was made by the authorities to found the new parish in Odrowaz with the villages of Dzial, Pieniazkowice and Zaluczne becoming its part. In the next years the two constructions were carried on simultaneously, namely the legal one in Odrowaz and the illegal one in Pieniazkowice. The argument between the two communities continued despite intervention of state authorities, the owners of the villages as well as the rector.

Other author's publications:
Justyna Lukaszewska-Haberkowa,

Shellie
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject:

There is a photo of Fr. Mis in the rectory at Odrowaz. I snapped a photo (see below)

Odrowaz Priest Portrait (Jan Kanty Mis)2.jpg

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Odrowaz Priest Portrait (Jan Kanty Mis)2.jpg

babblingbrook

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Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:25 pm Post subject:

hi, not an expert but looking at the page before Shellie for Casimierz look at how the m's are the same. so yeah i think it is ema for sure. Oliver seems to have thought so as well.
i think it means death for both of them. death is clear on the second ema due to the cross as well right after the vid. the vid is definitely short hand and i am presuming. However, when i got one or two death records in Krakow I noticed that for a widow, the way it was written was vid post and then had the husbands name. somehow i figured out this meant widow, oh i think because he remarried and had more kids so he was still alive. does not translate for sure when you look up latin translations but whenever i have seen it, i saw it elsewhere but cannot remember.... it told me they were dead.
maybe we can verify with oliver.
hope this helps at all.
bonnie

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