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maallen16



Joined: 18 Jan 2025
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 12:34 pm      Post subject: Nur-Mlodzianowski Brick Wall - Marriage
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Mlodzianowski Brick Wall
??Marriage record for Wojciech’s parents, Franciszek Mlodzianowski and Konstancja??
Any help would be greatly appreciated
-Marian

-There is a marriage record between Konstancja Jozefa Tomczuk and Franciszek Marciniak
1835 Strekow, Nur Record No 23. His parents Pawel and Teresa Grzegorzowna
-Franciszek Marciniak born 28 Sep 1813 Czyzew, Biale Palegi, Podlaskie, Parents Pawel and Teresa Grzegorzowna
-I cannot find any children born to Franciszek Marciniak and Konstancja
-first child born to Franciszek Mlodzianowski and Konstancja born in 1837
-I cannot find a death record for Franciszek Marciniak
- Could Marciniak be the first husband of Konstancja?

Goal:
- Find marriage record of Franciszek Mlodzianowski and Konstancja
- Find death record of Franciszek Marciniak

Wojciech Mlodzianowski (my Great-Grandfather)
Birth: 1844 Record 58
Province Mazowieckie, Nur Parish
Father: Franciszek
Mother Konstancja Tomczuk
Location: Nur
Unit: 1844 UMZ-1844
Years: 1844
File: 054-059.jpg
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=807&se=&sy=1844&kt=1&plik=054-059.jpg&x=1867&y=817&zoom=1

Siblings:
All of his sibling’s birth records (Nur) show parents as Franciszek Mlodzianowski and Konstancja Tomczuk:
Katarzyna 1837-1866
Scholastyka 1840-1912
Marianna 1841-1842
Wiktor 1844-1899
Justyna 1845-1905
Jakub 1848-1849
Otolia 1849-????
Paulina 1851-1852
Emilia 1854-1856
Marianna 1855-1855

Mother:
Konstancja (Jozefa) Tomczuk
Born: 9 Mar 1817 Strewkowo, Nur
Died: 8 Jul 1855 Zebry Laskowjec, Nur (aa a result of childbirth, Marianna also died)
Birth record shows parents as Kajetan Tomczuk and Rozalia Paczkowska
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 12:40 pm      Post subject:
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Hi,
Give me some time. I'll see if I can find anything.
-Barb
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maallen16



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Post Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 1:31 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you Barb - you are an Angel!
-Marian
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 3:25 pm      Post subject:
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Hi,
Sophia if you read this post, please tell me what you think about this.

I think Franciszek Marciniak and Franciszek Młodzianowski is the same person.

The wedding between Franciszek and Konstancja had to be between 1834-1837.
According to Genetyka Franciszek (Marciniak) and Tomczuk Konstancja got married in 1835 in the parish of Nur.

Konstancja's parents, age match her birth record. According to Genetyka she was born in 1817.
Franciszek's parents are Pawel Marciniak and Teresa Grzegorz. According to Genetyka, he was born in 1813.

Pawel and Teresa Grzegorz married in 1811 in the parish of Czyzow, and then Pawel's surname is given as Mlodzianowski, not Marciniak.

I know this seems chaotic, but that is my opinion.

Franciszek dies as Mlodzianowski. Place of birth is the same as where Franciszek Marciniak was born.

https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=D&w=07mz&rid=6605&search_lastname=mlodzianowski&search_name=Franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=1882&to_date=1882&exac=1

-Barb
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maallen16



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Post Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 4:37 pm      Post subject:
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Barb -
Thank you for making sense out of the chaos!
You are amazing!
Marian
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:12 pm      Post subject:
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BarbOslo wrote:
Hi,
Sophia if you read this post, please tell me what you think about this.

I think Franciszek Marciniak and Franciszek Młodzianowski is the same person.

The wedding between Franciszek and Konstancja had to be between 1834-1837.
According to Genetyka Franciszek (Marciniak) and Tomczuk Konstancja got married in 1835 in the parish of Nur.

Konstancja's parents, age match her birth record. According to Genetyka she was born in 1817.
Franciszek's parents are Pawel Marciniak and Teresa Grzegorz. According to Genetyka, he was born in 1813.

Pawel and Teresa Grzegorz married in 1811 in the parish of Czyzow, and then Pawel's surname is given as Mlodzianowski, not Marciniak.

I know this seems chaotic, but that is my opinion.

Franciszek dies as Mlodzianowski. Place of birth is the same as where Franciszek Marciniak was born.

https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=D&w=07mz&rid=6605&search_lastname=mlodzianowski&search_name=Franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=1882&to_date=1882&exac=1

-Barb


Hi Barb,
Very interesting!
Does this give you any additional info? I cannot quite manage the handwriting but I think it is the annex information for the couple, getting married in 1835. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T9-61ZY?cat=2789121&i=77
Sophia
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maallen16



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Post Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 9:13 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia!
Thank you for helping.
What is the 'annex information' and how did you search for it and find it?
-Marian
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:22 am      Post subject:
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maallen16 wrote:
Sophia!
Thank you for helping.
What is the 'annex information' and how did you search for it and find it?
-Marian


Hi Marian,

If a couple who were about to be married were from the same parish, then there will be no annex information for them. However, if (for example) the groom was from another parish, then the priest of the groom's parish would send a document to the priest of the bride's parish. It would provide reassurance that the groom was baptized, that he had not been married (or perhaps he was but his former spouse had died) and usually it mentions that three banns were read in that parish. The priest of the bride's parish then kept that document on file. In Polish, the phrase Aneksy do akt małżeństw is what you will find in the title of the records.

I will write a second message later today, explaining what I was actually looking for and how I found this record.

Best regards,
Sophia
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maallen16



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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:53 am      Post subject:
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Thank you! I love learning these things!
-Marian
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:26 am      Post subject:
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maallen16 wrote:
Thank you! I love learning these things!
-Marian


Hi Marian,

Well, those of us who answer questions on the forum love when there is someone who is genuinely interesting in learning these things!

When I looked at what Barb was writing about Franciszek Mlodzianowski and Franciszek Marciniak being the same person, I wondered whether we were looking at an instance of someone changing their name or if we were looking at a situation where there was an error in the record. Sometimes, errors in the record are found and a notation is made later to correct them. So, I decided to try to make a comparison of the record as it appears in the original church book with the image from the duplicate church book, if both were available online.

Original church books were kept in the parish. At the end of each year, a copy of the year's records were made and sent to a higher level of the church for safekeeping. Often, the latter are labelled "duplikat" (duplicate) or "kopie" (copy) but you can often tell which one you are looking at because the duplicate records cover only one year, and a single book will include births, marriages and deaths, with indices for each category, whereas the original records could be a set of books, one book for births (covering a span of many years), another for marriages and a third one for deaths. What I am describing did not happen everywhere, all the time, but it does give you a sense of how the system worked. Notes in the margins would be more likely to be found in original church books. These can include additions (like a notation on a baptism record that the person named there was later married, or died) or corrections of errors.

When I looked at Metryki, https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/pow-242 I could see that the parish of Nur has records in several groupings. Looking at 0263d and 0263ad, both cover the same years 1826-1876 for the same parish, St. John the Apostle, but I do not see any difference in what is in them. That is, it does not look like one is the original and the other the duplicate. So, I went to look at what FamilySearch has for the parish of Nur. If you go here https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&placeId=4462790&query=%2Bplace%3A%22Poland%2C%20Masovia%2C%20Ostr%C3%B3w%2C%20Nur%22&subjectsOpen=1402313403-50,558451-50 and click on Church Records, there are two options. The first one has the word "kopie" in the title, so it is the duplicate. However, those records are locked. You would have to go to a Family History Center to view them. The second option is from the City Archives of Warsaw and you are able to look at the images. Here, I found the image of the 1835 marriage and it looked identical to what you have already seen from Metryki, so it gave me no new information to provide to help settle the surname discrepancy. Then, I found the 1835 annex records. Whew! Long story ..... but you did ask!

Best,
Sophia
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maallen16



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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:42 am      Post subject:
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I love long stories!
I have spent the last 6 years working on my husband's Swedish branch, and really got spoiled by the church records there. Have not looked at my Polish roots for quite a while. So excited to get back to my own heritage When we lived in Virginia we had a strong Polish community, and I really miss that. Here in Louisville, KY I have found no one, so finding PolishOrigins has been wonderful. I hope you do not get tired of all my questions!
-Marian
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 12:13 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Sophia and Marian,
I have seen the annex (from 1835) earlier. This document does not provide us with more information.
It sounds strange to compare such different surnames as Marciniak and Mlodzianowski. But there are several places where everything fits so well.
Wedding Marciniak-Tomczuk just before the first child Mlodzianowski-Tomczuk was born. The bride's age, place of birth and the parents' names. Franciszek Mlodzianowski's birthplace as stated in his death record (same as Franciszek Marciniak). Mlodzianowski surname as mentioned in the marriage record (1811), although the children of that couple are again named Marciniak.
Correct as you write that maybe copy 2 has some other guides. But strange that the surname was not corrected anywhere. That it is not written "Mlodzianowski vel Marciniak".
It will not be easy to solve this puzzle.

-Barb
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maallen16



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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 12:39 pm      Post subject:
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My mother always told me I was a problem child.
Thanks for all the help, and please let me know if there is anything you need from me
-Marian
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 1:54 pm      Post subject:
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BarbOslo wrote:
Hi Sophia and Marian,
I have seen the annex (from 1835) earlier. This document does not provide us with more information.
It sounds strange to compare such different surnames as Marciniak and Mlodzianowski. But there are several places where everything fits so well.
Wedding Marciniak-Tomczuk just before the first child Mlodzianowski-Tomczuk was born. The bride's age, place of birth and the parents' names. Franciszek Mlodzianowski's birthplace as stated in his death record (same as Franciszek Marciniak). Mlodzianowski surname as mentioned in the marriage record (1811), although the children of that couple are again named Marciniak.
Correct as you write that maybe copy 2 has some other guides. But strange that the surname was not corrected anywhere. That it is not written "Mlodzianowski vel Marciniak".
It will not be easy to solve this puzzle.

-Barb


Hi Barb,

There is a Franciszek Marciniak vel Wojtczuk, in this marriage:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=807&se=&sy=1853&kt=2&plik=38-40.jpg&x=1946&y=52&zoom=1.5

And there are two other interesting Marciniak's, one is Andrzej Marciniak Wojtczuk, in this death record 25:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=832&se=&sy=A1818&kt=7&plik=024-026.jpg&x=1600&y=152&zoom=2.25

And the other is Stanislaw Marciniak Wojtczuk, in this death record 27:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=832&se=&sy=A1818&kt=7&plik=027-029.jpg&x=162&y=728&zoom=2

How do you interpret this? Is Wojtczuk being used there as Son-of-Wojciech but the surname is really Marciniak? And could something similar have happened with Marian's family, where Marciniak was Son-of-Marcin but the surname was really Mlodzianowski?

Sophia
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:51 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
BarbOslo wrote:
Hi Sophia and Marian,
I have seen the annex (from 1835) earlier. This document does not provide us with more information.
It sounds strange to compare such different surnames as Marciniak and Mlodzianowski. But there are several places where everything fits so well.
Wedding Marciniak-Tomczuk just before the first child Mlodzianowski-Tomczuk was born. The bride's age, place of birth and the parents' names. Franciszek Mlodzianowski's birthplace as stated in his death record (same as Franciszek Marciniak). Mlodzianowski surname as mentioned in the marriage record (1811), although the children of that couple are again named Marciniak.
Correct as you write that maybe copy 2 has some other guides. But strange that the surname was not corrected anywhere. That it is not written "Mlodzianowski vel Marciniak".
It will not be easy to solve this puzzle.

-Barb


Hi Barb,

There is a Franciszek Marciniak vel Wojtczuk, in this marriage:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=807&se=&sy=1853&kt=2&plik=38-40.jpg&x=1946&y=52&zoom=1.5

And there are two other interesting Marciniak's, one is Andrzej Marciniak Wojtczuk, in this death record 25:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=832&se=&sy=A1818&kt=7&plik=024-026.jpg&x=1600&y=152&zoom=2.25

And the other is Stanislaw Marciniak Wojtczuk, in this death record 27:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=832&se=&sy=A1818&kt=7&plik=027-029.jpg&x=162&y=728&zoom=2

How do you interpret this? Is Wojtczuk being used there as Son-of-Wojciech but the surname is really Marciniak? And could something similar have happened with Marian's family, where Marciniak was Son-of-Marcin but the surname was really Mlodzianowski?

Sophia


I don't know, Sophia. There are quite a few surnames that come from male first names. But as you say, this combination is not seen with the surname Mlodzianowski.
-Barb
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