Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:13 pm
Post subject: Can you identify place name?
Can you identify the first word? Two others, as I suppose, are "in Preussen"?
Supposedly, the place should be in Kulm-Chelm area. Have checked "Słownik Geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego i innych krajów słowiańskich" but have not found any possible name.
There is a variant of this name (was transcribed by LDS) but seems to be not correct.
Michael
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:52 am
Post subject: Re: Can you identify place name?
| seamike wrote: | Can you identify the first word? Two others, as I suppose, are "in Preussen"?
Supposedly, the place should be in Kulm-Chelm area. Have checked "Słownik Geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego i innych krajów słowiańskich" but have not found any possible name.
There is a variant of this name (was transcribed by LDS) but seems to be not correct.
Michael |
Michael,
A little clarification: if Prussia and Kulm, then Chełmno (Chełm is a town in the South-East Poland, near Ukrainian border).
Your tiny jpeg is too small to determine what the first letter is (no other J, I, T, Z, F, ...), on a full page we could see other words, maybe recognize something.
The third letter could be "g", and then probaby "kl" near the end. The name could be either Polish or German, or a mixture of both, approximate. It is unknown when the tiny record was written, and where - by Polish speaker, by German speaker or US immigration?
Did you check the list of Places in Prussia & Pomerania - 1879?
http://www.ipgs.us/places1879/places1879Z.html
Best,
Elzbieta
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:54 am
Post subject:
Elzbieta,
Thanks, you are correct, the area is Kulm-Chełmno of course.
Here is the whole image, the place in question is record 97.
I think the second letter is "o" but cannot define 4 and 5.
Besides "Słownik Geograficzny..." have also checked Ravenstein's "Atlas des Deutschen Reichs" and browsed historical maps of the area but nothing definite.
Michael
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:48 am
Post subject:
| seamike wrote: | Elzbieta,
Thanks, you are correct, the area is Kulm-Chełmno of course.
Here is the whole image, the place in question is record 97.
I think the second letter is "o" but cannot define 4 and 5.
Besides "Słownik Geograficzny..." have also checked Ravenstein's "Atlas des Deutschen Reichs" and browsed historical maps of the area but nothing definite.
Michael |
Michael and Elzbieta,
Two other places listed there mentions Tarutino and Malojaroslavetz. I have found a reference for these places in the link below, as being next to Odessa, Kkerson, Russia.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6M-X9H
Gilberto
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UtePO Top Contributor
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Replies: 599
Location: GermanyBack to top |
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:05 am
Post subject:
This is the old German handwriting my grandmother used. The place name refers to his place of birth which could have been some place else as well. Might be a little far fetched, but how about Torgau, Klein-Preussen? Browsed Torgau and Klein-Preussen and saw the name Roloff.
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sirdanPO Top Contributor
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:17 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:27 am
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UtePO Top Contributor
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Replies: 599
Location: GermanyBack to top |
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:30 am
Post subject:
They were Germans who settled in Bessarabia. See e.g.
http://www.armin-zimmermann.eu/Bessarabien/Herkunft/Bessarabien_englisch.html
The head of the page you posted and the handwriting are in German. I can read most of it.
It is a book of deaths for the month of August of the year 1837 and refers to the 'Kolonie Kulm' and the death of Anna Elisabeth Roloff, geb. (née) Schumm?, wife of the Colonist (settler) Georg Roloff, married, who passed away at the age of 38 years. Cause of death looks like 'Nervenfieber' the translation of which should be typhoid fever.
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UtePO Top Contributor
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Replies: 599
Location: GermanyBack to top |
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:03 am
Post subject:
You're right, Gilberto -- Togarkle!
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:05 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto, Ute
Thanks for your comments.
Yes, this word was transcribed by LSD and first appeared at Armin Zimmermann web-site as "Togarkle".
But the problem is that there is no such place in Poland or Prussia. I have checked Polish and German gazetteers, Polish and German maps of this area - but no result.
Once this "Togarkle" was mentioned as "Togarkle, Kulm, Prussia" another time as "Parlin, Togarkle".
So I see two possible solutions - either "Togarkle" is a misspelled place name (it was written in death record in 1837, 22 years after family emigrated from this "Togarkle, Prussia" to Kulm, Bessarabia (now village Pidgirne in Odessa region of Ukraine) - here I will agree with Ute's "Thorun", or maybe it is not a place name, but a common word, but cannot find Polish or German root.
Anyway, are you sure that 4th letter is "a"? And the last one does not look like "e" for me.
Michael
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UtePO Top Contributor
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Replies: 599
Location: GermanyBack to top |
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:53 pm
Post subject:
There's actually two letters in between and I would read 'Torgenkle' in Preußen -- the ending is definitely a kle - and then 'in' and then 'Preußen' = Prussia. Now why did they add Preußen to it? That's why I thought it could be Thorun, Klein-Preußen, and the person who wrote it down just left a gap between 'kle' and 'in'. If you add 'kle' and 'in' you have the German word 'klein' the meaning of which is little, small, which is often used for German village names: Klein- (small) ... or Gross ... (big, large). Why not write to Armin Zimmerman and ask him, he seems to be an expert on Bessarabia and its German immigrants.
Last edited by Ute on Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:02 pm
Post subject:
Michael,
I just spent quite a long time trying to find those names. Togarkle, Parlin, Wabudno.
In this book published in 1879:
Nazwy miejscowe polskie Prus Zachodnich, Wschodnich i Pomorza wraz z przezwiskami niemieckiemi[!] = Die Polonischen Ortsnamen der Provinzen Preussen und Pommern und ihre Deutschen Benennungen
http://www.kpbc.ukw.edu.pl/dlibra/plain-content?id=16250
pages 74 to 77, Kreis Schwetz, Powiat Swiecki
Parlin/Parlina is on page 77, but no Togarkle neither Wubudno.
I find it curious.
I also found records where Parlin is suggested to be Togarkle, such as here:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=1000b1001ma&id=I79417
Parlina is 17 km distant of Chełmno on Google Maps.
What could be Wubudna, which does not sound German to me, and is quite strange in Polish?
On this page http://www.ipgs.us/places1879/places1879W.html we have two names in Polish starting with
"Wybudowanie", that word meaning construction.
My first guess is that Wubudna could be a transformation of abbreviated "Wybudowanie". But "construction" of what?
My second try is to search for Polish vilage name in Chełmno area, which badly deciphered could became Wubudno. Therefore my second guess Wąbrzeźno, which is 37 km east of Chełmno. That Polish name is tricky enough with diacritics and spelling, that it could became Wubudno.
Wąbrzeźno is an old Prussian place, Frideck or Briesen in German, see righ side, bottom:
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_IX/102
Also wiki
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%85brze%C5%BAno
Concerning Togarkle, I have no idea. The closest "T" city is Torun, Thorn.
Best,
Elzbieta
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:15 pm
Post subject:
Elzbieta,
Regarding Wubudno I think very good explanation have Armin's Zimmerman at http://www.armin-zimmermann.eu/Bessarabien/Vorfahren/Vorfahren_englisch.html :
"In the immigration list Kulm we find as point of origin: Parlin, Togarkle for Anna Elisabeth Roloff and Wubudna for Johann Ferdinand Roloff * about 1765. The note for Johann Ferdinand is most important: Reuben Drefs is listing in the 1772 Netze land records a Johann Roloff in Obudno, government office Labischin. This Ubudno ist definitely identical to Wubudna mentioned in Bessarabian records. It is located about 20 kilometers south of Labischin (Łabiszyn) and today is written Obudno. Interestingly 4 kilometer south of Obudno there is a village called Parlin! "
But again nothing definite about "Togarkle"
Again, will agree with Ute that in could be "klein" not "kle"+"in" - but "what-klein"?
"T****klein, Preussen", for example
Michael
Last edited by seamike on Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UtePO Top Contributor
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Replies: 599
Location: GermanyBack to top |
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:24 pm
Post subject:
Klein-Preußen (Preussen)
Last edited by Ute on Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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